Unknown Ailment

Kaidonni

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A year ago I had terrible problems with my fish tank. I lost a number of fish to an unknown illness. Three fish perished, of which one White Cloud Mountain Minnow and one Clown Loach died from wasting, and another White Cloud Mountain Minnow was somewhat bloated and reddened. I had previously changed half of the bio-filter media, with potential for a mini-cycle (stupid!), but the fact that only one fish showed such reddening (septicaemia?) and no other fish showed any signs of ammonia poisoning et al was baffling. I treated for camallanus in particular using Chanaverm, and after discussing my situation at length with a tropical fish veterinarian, one possibility was fish tuberculosis.
 
Things were going okay after all of that, but due to the potential of fish TB I held back on re-homing or re-stocking. Currently five White Cloud Mountain Minnows and two Clown Loaches reside in the tank, and it's the latter two where my problem now resides - bullying. For about eight months they seemed to have this thing where the larger would keep out of the way of the smaller, and would shy away from conflict. He wasn't able to eat as much as a consequence, but seemed to get on well enough.
 
Before I go any further, I got these Clown Loaches back when I was more naive and ignorant, with a tank smaller than was appropriate. I had no trouble for years and years, not even Ich (*touch wood*), then my problems started with the wasting issue. Due to the potential for fish TB being present, I'm in a real bind - I can't just go rehoming them and forget about it. I've spent the whole last year stressing about what will happen next.
 
A few months ago, the larger Clown Loach lost some of the upper tip of his caudal fin to nipping, but it started growing back. Rinse and repeat, but then he lost his lower tip. There isn't any fraying, so that can't be fin rot. However, in recent weeks he's taken to extensive shimmying and has completely lost his appetite. There may be some thinning which I originally chalked down to not being able to eat as much; noticed it so many months ago last year, and even now it's nowhere near as pronounced as with the Clown Loach who died of wasting. There does appear to be some loss of his right pectoral (looks a little frayed) and pelvic fin (looks nipped/split), possibly some on his left pelvic fin, but no loss/fraying of any other fins in the fin rot style. Some whitish lining to these affected fins as best I can tell. Additional slime coat production (a pale patch here and there, along with general paleness) and rapid gilling. A whitish mark on the dorsal fin (possibly a scratch).
 
What is this? For fin rot, I'd expect it to attack his caudal fin most of all, not be so selective, and I wouldn't expect it to cause this level of shimmying and loss of appetite (we're talking two weeks or so of no interest in food any longer - at one point, it took a second, smaller-scale feeding to get his attention). It could be fish TB, it could be camallanus worms, it could be absolutely anything.
 
My water parameters are as follows, and I do a 10 litre water change every week (sometimes a week and one day/two days, advancing it forward):
 
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrites 0ppm
Nitrates 10-20ppm
PH 7-7.5
 
With fish TB along with the wasting fish would get open wounds, lumps, spines bending in an S shape, bloat, dropsy. popeye, basically every other disease going as their immune system is attacked, if you have had none of the above with the remaining fish they I doubt it is TB, to be blunt they would be all dead by now with the exception of the carrier. 
 
What size is your tank? 10l wc per week does not seem very much.
 
star4 said:
With fish TB along with the wasting fish would get open wounds, lumps, spines bending in an S shape, bloat, dropsy. popeye, basically every other disease going as their immune system is attacked, if you have had none of the above with the remaining fish they I doubt it is TB, to be blunt they would be all dead by now with the exception of the carrier. 
 
What size is your tank? 10l wc per week does not seem very much.
 
Much to my shame, it's a 50l tank. I had the Clown Loaches when I was far more ignorant, actually in a 90l tank, but had to do an emergency transfer several years ago (as in, they had to be moved to an entirely new tank as the larger one sprung a leak) - how they survived that without any serious issues is beyond me. I'd never experienced any problems until last year, and I'd rehome, but whatever killed the first Clown Loach and the two Minnows last January/February and whatever is in the tank now have left me very concerned about what I'd be passing on to other fish owners. I know, I know, I've been extremely stupid, but the current situation needs solving - if I am to rehome, I do not want to be causing trouble for anyone else. It just doesn't seem to follow the symptoms of any common ailment. I am getting some Chanaverm to treat as I did last year, and there is the potential for fin rot also (eSHa 2000 seems like a good treatment).
 
I do understand where you are coming from. I rescue fish and I have fish here that I dare not find homes for just in case. 
 
I am not going so say your tank is not big enough as you already know that. You need to do a minimum 50% wc weekly on such a size tank with clown loach in. I am suspecting some of the problems will be down to stunting. I have fish here that have been stunted and they suffer bloating problems and I have to be so careful with their diets. I am not going to suggest any medications because of the sensitivity of the clown loach in addition with their tank size. It seems to me that you have a bacterial problem, clean water clean water clean water is your best option to start with. Do a large water change today, tomorrow do at least 1/4 wc then daily for the next week reducing it down the following week to every other day, then 3 days, then up it to 50% every 5 days, then 6 days till you get back to weekly.   A larger, much larger tank is your next, that is if you are going to keep the clown loach. The larger of the clown loach not eating could be down to stunting, his internal organs are bigger than he is and he is just having difficulty eating. A sudden change to a massive tank is just as harmful he would need to go up in tank size gradually so his body size can catch up, it is not an easy process unless you have different sized tanks and sadly it does not always work (been there and I have a clown loach I am working with at the moment). The more clean water you can get into the tank the better. Soak some de-shelled peas in garlic and try feeding those, the garlic has natural antibiotic properties and will help better than medication, the pea's will help keep his digestive system clear.
 
If you are looking to re-home the clown loach, pm me your e-mail address and I will give you the contact of someone who maybe able to help.

I didnt ask, are you in the UK?
 
Yes, I'm in the UK.
 
He had his appetite up until the time the chunk was taken out of the bottom of his caudal fin, after which the excessive shimmying started; he just had to get stuck in at dinner when the other Clown Loach wasn't prowling. He hasn't been able to eat as much as he once did, and the other Clown Loach matches him in size (but has no difficulty whatsoever eating).
 
You say clean water is important. I did a change yesterday, 10l (took out ~9l, replaced with 10l), and I keep to a weekly schedule, replacing 10 for 10. I clean the filter pads, removing the gunk from the sponges, and replace the wool every one to two weeks (rotating the wool so both ends get used before removing it, although the past month or so I've been replacing it each time); I have a Fluval filter, with the middle filter wool needing replacing regularly and the two outer pads last a very long time (years). I updated my first post, with both Ammonia and Nitrites at 0, Nitrates 10-20ppm, and pH 7.0-7.5 (it's hard to tell the exact number with the Nutrafin tests). Those water changes you suggested seem a little excessive, and I'm concerned it could affect the water chemistry too rapidly, causing further stress.
 
I appreciate your concern, during large frequent water changes like I have suggested you will need to test your water, if you dechlorinate correctly it should not affect the bacteria in your filter. Although your ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are good you cannot measure bad bacteria within the water, which is what you are going to need to clear up. A quick fix is adding a medication like esha 2000 but the problem will only return in a month or so, to keep an overstocked tank healthy is a very difficult thing to manage and the only way is more frequent large water changes, replenishing all the goodness in the water and improving conditions for your fish. :)
 
I've prepared a bucket of water for a change tomorrow, 10.5 litres. I do use Seachem Prime, switched from Nutrafin Aqua Plus a few months ago (wondering if that has anything at all to do with my current situation). I've gotten into the habit of leaving water for 24 hours; I have previously asked on the forums, and been reassured that this is unnecessary, but I prefer not to risk it...never used to use dechlorinator, it goes back to those days. I also don't heat my water, and the Minnows like gathering at the top and swimming anywhere I want to pour the clean water in, so I don't want to overwhelm the fish with constant changes back and forth between water temperature, etc. Tuesday and then Thursday would be the next best times to do a change.
 
Sounds good, extra water changes are a good start. Someone should be in touch see if they can help further :)
 
I've been looking up constipation as a possible issue, and wondering whether epsom salts or boiled de-shelled peas were better? Given that the one Clown Loach isn't eating, de-shelled peas may not be effective.
 
Soak de-shelled peas in garlic, or vitazin. the garlic smell does help with fish with little or no appitite, it also has antibacterial properties. Vitazin, which is made by waterlife will also encourage a fish to eat and contains added vitamins an minerals. Its great stuff, I use it with sick fish. You can also soak dried foods and frozen foods in vitazin.
 
So flake food and pellets can be soaked in vitazin? It may be a start, as well as the de-shelled peas and garlic/vitazin. I prefer the vitazin to be honest - I'm very meticulous in preparation, to the point I wash my hands in cold water and dry them repeatedly until I'm certain they are both dry enough and there isn't any residual soap, etc, from earlier in the day on them. I probably go too far... I keep handling of non-fish tank implements to a minimum when messing around inside the tank, lest I somehow transfer a chemical to the water. I know now that I'll be extremely picky in how I handle soaking peas in anything (and what I touch between washing my hands and handling the peas and anything else), although I'll do whatever is best.
 
One of my concerns is that it's a parasitic infection, and that the laxative effects of de-shelled peas may not work the intended way (it could be either he is constipated or he's got some nasty thing blocking him up). I had dosed with Chanaverm last year due to the wasting symptoms of the Clown Loach who died, although I never saw any of the parasites when sucking the gravel. It's a double-edged sword - if he's simply constipated, the peas might work great, but if he does have a parasitic infection, it might make things worse (but then, dosing with something aimed at killing parasites might make things worse by blocking him up). He didn't appear to have a bloated abdomen the last time I checked, which I would suspect with either parasites or constipation depending upon the severity. As for my previous thoughts on fin rot, part of me thinks it'd progress fast enough that I wouldn't mistake it for nipped fins.
 
Next water change is Tuesday, followed by Friday and then Sunday.
 
If you are dosing them with Chanaverm then a feed of de-shelled peas after the dose (day after) is the best thing to do. Not all of the parasites will pass through the gut when treated they can die inside the fish and rot causing secondary infections (bloat, constipation or bacterial infection) feeding peas after treatment will help the fish flush out the dead parasites. Dead parasites are not always visible after treatment. If you can work it that you do the treatment day 1, feed peas day 2 then water change day 3 gravel vaccing thoroughly you should clear out any dead parasites. I have not used Chanaverm myself so I dont know the wc instructions. I use sera nematol which you do a wc 48 hours after treatment.
 
With Chanaverm, 24 hours afterwards is usually the first gravel vacuum, but it's advised to leave water changes until a week after (meaning it's a very quick gravel vacuum).
 
Feed peas then on the day you dose them, the trouble is you are doing extra water changes. OK do the water changes for this week to Sunday, then treat for worms and feed peas on Sunday after the water change. Monitor the water conditions after medicating and water change as necessary then the following week do extra water changes again. See if there are any improvements.
 
Alternatively, I could feed peas this evening as I'm doing a water change tomorrow, and see what happens. I fed a small amount of food to them yesterday, so I'd keep the amount of peas to a minimum. Any particular type of garlic?
 
Wondering if I should really be concerned about parasites at this stage (probably could cause similar symptoms to constipation), or if treating for constipation alone is risky.
 

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