Ugf And Canister Combo

[Plecc]

Hi all,

Until a recent substrate change, I had no idea how much muck and silt was being trapped under my existing gravel, although i do my best to keep my tank as clean as possible with regular water changes and vacuuming, this muck still slowly builds up in any out of sight areas.

I'm sure this must have been done before!

I would like to combine an old traditional under gravel filter with a decent external canister filter.

By fitting the UGF as normal and then connecting the intake of the canister filter onto the up tube for the UGF.

I'm hoping this will create flow through the substrate to help clear any buildup of waste directly into the canister filter, which would then flow the filtered water back into the tank as normal.

Or possibly a reverse of this so that the output from the canister filter is connected to the up tube for the UGF, helping to create a current up through the gravel, preventing food and waste from being pulled into the gravel to begin with.

What do you think?
Can anyone see any problems with a setup like this?
Is it likely to quickly block an external filter, having to cope with the extra sludge?
Has anyone ever tried this?


Thanks Plecc.

 

[mattlee]

i think i would just scrap the ugf and use a decent external...

 

[Plecc]

Thanks,

But thats the setup i am using at the moment, the idea is to use the UGF as an under-gravel pickup to improve circulation through the substrate.

To hopefully keep the tank cleaner and healthier.

Plecc.

 

[fatheadminnow]

I don't see why it would not work?

It is just that I would not do it because the UGF is going to get a lot dirtier a lot fast which would require you to clean frequently. A power head, which is used for UGF, doe not provide as much flow compared to an equivalent canister filter. SO you would be pulling a lot more water through the substrate which would cause ti to get very dirty.

I would scrap the idea of a UGF. A UGF really limits what you can do to a tank, especially if you want to go planted.

-FHM

 

[bitteraspects]

As mentioned above, just get rid of the UGF all together. The canister will take care of all the filtration and there will be no need for the UGF (not that there is any current need for it. )
The UGF trays are the reason all the gunk is getting stuck under the substrate. Thts just one of many reasons to remove that piece of junk.
Attempting to rrun a canister through a UGF will only restrict the flow (hindering its filtration capabilities) and reduce the circulation in the tank even further.

UGF may have had their place in the early 80s when it was one of very few filtration options, but they have long since been replaced by much more efficiant means of filtration, some of which are even more affordable.

Just rid yourself of that outdated piece of junk, and let the canister do its thing.

 

[Plecc]

Thanks for the quick response,

I was thinking that the much higher flow rate of the canister filter compared to a power-head would be powerful enough to constantly flush any waste straight through the gravel and into the filter, especially using a large pea gravel.

I love having live plants in my tank, IMO it's the only way.
You mentioned that UGF's are bad for planted tanks, any idea why?
do the plants struggle to get the required nutrients or something?

Plecc.

 

[fatheadminnow]

The plants, as they grow, their roots will create a barrier in the substrate for water and debris to get through. You would be surprised how much the roots spread in a well planted tank! I know I was when I had to move one of my plants!

A UGF is, like mentioned above, a think of the past.

A canister or sump filter, IMO, are one of the best filters for a tank.

-FHM

 

[Plecc]

As mentioned above, just get rid of the UGF all together. The canister will take care of all the filtration and there will be no need for the UGF (not that there is any current need for it. )
The UGF trays are the reason all the gunk is getting stuck under the substrate. Thts just one of many reasons to remove that piece of junk.
Attempting to rrun a canister through a UGF will only restrict the flow (hindering its filtration capabilities) and reduce the circulation in the tank even further.

UGF may have had their place in the early 80s when it was one of very few filtration options, but they have long since been replaced by much more efficiant means of filtration, some of which are even more affordable.

Just rid yourself of that outdated piece of junk, and let the canister do its thing.

Sry i should have made this clearer in my first post.
I'm not using a UGF, just an 1000L/h external canister filter and a small internal filter with a spray bar attached.
The build up of muck is under the gravel in all those hard to reach areas that can't be got at with a vacuum.
I was hoping that using the tray from an UGF would help to create channels under the gravel so any waste could be sucked out by my filter.

This idea stemmed from a video i found on line of a very experienced fish breeder, flushing his under gravel system every fortnight by connecting a wet and dry shop vac into the UGF up-pipe. (don't try this at home guys and girls)
Which appeared to work really well, he swears he has never has to vacuum his tank's since.

So this got me thinking why couldn't my canister filter do the same job but constantly rather than every 2 weeks and a hell of allot safer.
I understand that using an UGF with weak flow like an air stone or power head basically turns your whole base of gravel into a big messy filter, but buy using a flow of 1000L/h i thought any waste would get sucked straight through into the canister.

Plecc.

 

[three-fingers]

It's a great idea, and many people use it to great effect .

Only drawbacks are that it adds extra complications to a tanks filter system that aren't needed (the dirt in the gravel is doing no harm anyway, so why bother going through such effort to get rid of it?), and that most plants really wont like it. Plants like Anubias and Java fern love the flow through the substrate though.

If you still want to...instead of connecting the inlet pipe to the UGF uplift tube, attach the outlet pipe. This way dirt doesn't get drawn into the gravel at all, it gets flushed out into the water so the external can suck it in.

All that gravel provides a huge surface area for bacteria too, should be able to take a very high bioload..

What size of tank is this though? 1000lph may not be enough to create the desired effect, and the main drawback of the UGF (that dirt still accumulates under there over time) would still be an issue if the pump isnt large enough.

With a strong enough pump, it's a great idea.

That extra internal you have will still be beneficial to provide some better flow in the tank, as the externals output would be spread out so much the flow would be very gentle.

 

[Plecc]

Thanks three-fingers,

My tank is 130L and the pump is just over 1000L/h.
So i think that gives me about 8 or 9 full cycles of the tank every hour, do you think thats enough?

I really like the two plants you mentioned (Anubias and Java fern) do you know of any other plants that would be happy in this type of setup?

Do you know of anyone on this forum that uses a similar setup?

Think your right that the system would work better in reverse, helping to push waste up out of the gravel and basically using the gravel as one massive bio-filter.

For the price of a couple of UGF plates and a couple of power-heads to help with circulation in the tank, it can only be beneficial to filtration, surely!


Plecc.

 

[nmonks]

Reverse-flow undergravel filters are probably the best in-tank filters ever. You get a clean substrate, water movement at the bottom of the tank, and top-notch biological filtration. So if you can do this, by all means do so. The best approach is to use the canister for mechanical (and, if necessary, chemical) filtration. Choose media that are easily cleaned or replaced if water clarity is important to you. Leave biological filtration to the undergravel filter, though do bear in mind the grain size of the gravel is important here. The finer the gravel, the more surface area for bacteria, but if the gravel is too fine, water flow slows down, and filter performance drops.

Regular undergravel filters can work well, but they do get dirty quite quickly, and need to be raked through with each water change. As others have said, they're incompatible with plants that have roots. But floating plants and epiphytes are perfectly happy, so choose species from those two groups and you're laughing. Java ferns and Anubias have been mentioned already as epiphytes, and you simply attach them to bogwood roots, let them to their thing, and when its time to clean the gravel, lift the bogwood out of the tank! Couldn't be easier. Other epiphytes include Java fern and Bolbitis heudelotii.

Cheers, Neale

 

[waterdrop]

Thanks Neale, always a treat when you stop in and give us some advice. You know, one of the interesting things your post made me think about is that from time to time we get new beginners in here who are really struggling with the cost of their first tank. You can tell when they get worried about the cost of their first test kit or a good filter. It occurs to me that perhaps one could rig a nice little tank with an RUGF (with perhaps a little fluval internal or the smallest aquaclear in addition) and bag full of java ferns and anubias...

WD

 

[fatheadminnow]

I really like the idea of a RUGF!

-FHM

 

[nmonks]

Thanks for the kind words.

A reverse-flow undergravel filter in a tank with "moveable" Java ferns and Anubias is a very easy way to create an instant planted aquarium. Add some floating Indian fern, and you'll have something the greenery at all levels without ANY of the hassle involved with regular plants. I have done this many, many times. While a big "mother plant" Java fern or Anubias on a lump of bogwood is expensive, around 3-4 times the cost of a potted plant, it's virtually guaranteed to do well. So in the long term, things like Anubias especially (a plant I love) pay for themselves over and over again. Even better, if you get a goodly number of such plants, you can decorate the tank all at once, and immediately create something visually striking. Because these plants grow slowly, what you see is what you get: no imagination required, and pruning is minimal. I do recommend floating plants with epiphytes though, otherwise algae becomes a real pest. Indian fern will stop algae in its tracks, and as you crop the Indian fern back, you're physically removing nitrate and phosphate too.

The good thing about undergravel filters is they cycle quickly (within days if you add a few cups of gravel from another aquarium!) and there is almost nothing to go wrong. They have a massive surface area for bacteria, so water quality shouldn't really be a worry. The limitations are mostly to do with plants and the fact they suck dirt into themselves. A reverse-flow system doesn't suffer from the latter problem, and as for plants, not an issue with epiphytes or floating plants.

As you correctly observe, they can be a good, cheap option for medium to large tanks where a sponge or box filter isn't adequate (these latter my favourites for small tanks).

Cheers, Neale

Thanks Neale, always a treat when you stop in and give us some advice. You know, one of the interesting things your post made me think about is that from time to time we get new beginners in here who are really struggling with the cost of their first tank. You can tell when they get worried about the cost of their first test kit or a good filter. It occurs to me that perhaps one could rig a nice little tank with an RUGF (with perhaps a little fluval internal or the smallest aquaclear in addition) and bag full of java ferns and anubias...

 

[waterdrop]

Thanks for the kind words.

A reverse-flow undergravel filter in a tank with "moveable" Java ferns and Anubias is a very easy way to create an instant planted aquarium. Add some floating Indian fern, and you'll have something the greenery at all levels without ANY of the hassle involved with regular plants. I have done this many, many times. While a big "mother plant" Java fern or Anubias on a lump of bogwood is expensive, around 3-4 times the cost of a potted plant, it's virtually guaranteed to do well. So in the long term, things like Anubias especially (a plant I love) pay for themselves over and over again. Even better, if you get a goodly number of such plants, you can decorate the tank all at once, and immediately create something visually striking. Because these plants grow slowly, what you see is what you get: no imagination required, and pruning is minimal. I do recommend floating plants with epiphytes though, otherwise algae becomes a real pest. Indian fern will stop algae in its tracks, and as you crop the Indian fern back, you're physically removing nitrate and phosphate too.

The good thing about undergravel filters is they cycle quickly (within days if you add a few cups of gravel from another aquarium!) and there is almost nothing to go wrong. They have a massive surface area for bacteria, so water quality shouldn't really be a worry. The limitations are mostly to do with plants and the fact they suck dirt into themselves. A reverse-flow system doesn't suffer from the latter problem, and as for plants, not an issue with epiphytes or floating plants.

As you correctly observe, they can be a good, cheap option for medium to large tanks where a sponge or box filter isn't adequate (these latter my favourites for small tanks).

Cheers, Neale

Thanks Neale, always a treat when you stop in and give us some advice. You know, one of the interesting things your post made me think about is that from time to time we get new beginners in here who are really struggling with the cost of their first tank. You can tell when they get worried about the cost of their first test kit or a good filter. It occurs to me that perhaps one could rig a nice little tank with an RUGF (with perhaps a little fluval internal or the smallest aquaclear in addition) and bag full of java ferns and anubias...

Oh, that's quite an interesting comment for me, the bit about the algae. My son's 28G/106L came with a 15w T8 strip which was a bit too low-light so I added a second identical strip to put me barely over 1w/g. I'm dosing 1 capful of Excel daily, and obviously have no pressurized CO2. I do 50% water changes weekly, partly to regain some minerals as my KH is zero. I've struggled with continuing brown algae (diatoms I assume) and I've chalked it up to too much light (and of course not enough CO2) even though I only run them 5 hours total. I've also had a very small bit of BBA which I chalk up to the large CO2 swings of the water changes and I've always been curious whether those same swings might also help out the brown algae (any thoughts on that Neale?) I've lessened the algae by adding a Koralia Nano to augment the circulation of the Eheim's spraybar, but I still get small amounts. The interesting thing is that the tank has plenty of java ferns and anubia (also red wendtii) ... are they particularly vulnerable to the algae in this situation? I'd never thought about the floating plants. Which floating ones to you like best again? Maybe my fear of the ferns and anubias not getting enough light is unfounded.. I've always kept them out from under the shade of my huge lily-pad-like swordplant. WD