Two More Ill Fish...

[BlueDragon]

I'm not convinced there's anything I can do to help anymore...

Yesterday I noticed that Geisha, a pregnant female Guppy, was hovering at the top of the tank. She was very still, and for a second I thought she must be giving birth. But that wasn't the case as she's no where near ready yet. She stayed for a long time, and seemed to still be there when I came back off my morning walk. Then I noticed Lemon, my male Guppy, was sitting on the gravel. Just as Sunny had been doing before he died. This freaked me out, but this was before their morning water change. So I did change the water, taking out as much as I could with the Fish still being able to swim upright. I replaced all the water, treated of course, and then gave them all a lump of cucumber to try and get them interested. Geisha soon perked up again and gourged herself on the cucumber, along with the other two Guppy girls and the two Platy girls. Lemon still seemed tired, although he was trying to swim around. A bit later and I saw him eating some cucumber, but weather or not it's 'cause of his longer tail, he couldn't get himself in the right postition, with his tail in the air, to eat it properly. And later on the other Fish were starting to chase him away from it so he gave up.

This morning Geisha seems a bit better, but Lemon is still not well. Still sitting on the gravel a lot, but still swimming around as much as he can. It's exactly the same thing happening with him as was happening with Sunny. I've noticed this morning, too, that he seems underweight. Normaly he'd have a slight belly, but he seems flat. So then a part of me was wondering if maybe, with him being slower than the other Fish due to his longer tail, that maybe he just wasn't able to get enough food. I do always watch them eating, and he always seems to get just the same as everyone else though. But today I'll be putting him in a tupperware tub and feeding him some flakes of his own. I thought it was worth a shot, right? See if I can perk him up a bit.

But what I'm really thinking it that he's dieing... and maybe Geisha too. I don't want to admit it really, 'cause I don't really understand why it would happen. The only thing I can think it that the ammonia in the tap water (and therefor in the tank) has been building up inside him and has finally got to him?

I've been Fish-in cycling the tank since the 22nd May. And for most of that time the readings have been the same. No change at all (see my other posts about this)

Amonia: 0 / 0.5

PH: 6.4
KH: 50
GH: 125
Nirate: 10
Nirite: 0

This has been the same for both the main tank and the fry tank.

There has been no spike, no change. No up, no down. Nothing different. No new Fish, no new ornaments. No new bogwood or gravel. I've left the filter totally alone. I've been doing daily huge water changes, changing most of the water every morning. Treating it with declorinater before it goes in the tank. The only new thing is that I bought two tiny little plants at the begining of last week. But that can't be it, right?

Is there anything I can do to help Lemon and Geisha, or is this going to end up like it did for my other Fish? And in which case I would like peoples honest oppinions about what I should do. Knowing that if this is caused by ammonia poisoning, and therefor must feel horrable for Lemon and Geisha, I would like to know if people would recomend I put them to sleep now? I don't wish to keep them going if they're slowly suffercating from ammonia in their systems, as I believe was the case with my poor Sunny. It must feel awful. Would it be kinder to let them go?
Geisha is pregnant. If I was to put her to sleep, would I also put her babies to sleep or would it not effect them? How could I make sure they fall asleep with their mummy?

Of course I am very upset. It's hard for me not to cry through this to be honest, 'cause this is all my fault in the first place. But I need to be realistic and think of my Fish first. If they're going to suffer I want to put a stop to it now before they do. One way or another.

Thank you for any help in advance.

 

[BlueDragon]

Geisha seems to have perked up a bit, but is still hovering near the top of the tank a lot. She totally relaxes and just floats there, upright but still.

Lemon is the same. He's spending most of his time on the gravel. He is trying to swim around but he's getting too tired. I think he's going to go soon.

There's something I've been wondering about for about two weeks now. In my fry tank, in the inside wall, is all slimey. Clear and smells lovely of a newly opened bag of compost. I know that's good news and perfectly healthy. But in my main tank, which I've had set up for much longer (months) there's very little to no slime anywhere. I've felt all around the inside and can hardly feel anything. What could this mean? How can I have healthy slime in a tank that's only been running for a few weeks and non in one that's been running for months? And could this have anything to do with my Fish getting ill?
My filter does have lots of brown sludge clinging onto the opening at the bottom if it (where the water gets sucked up), so there must be some good stuff building up in there now. Which is great news. It's not blocking the filter from running properly and I can see it very slowly moving up into the sponge. So I know something good must be happening. But why no slime?

I realize that I'm trying to find some other explination to what's going on other that the most obvious one, but... well, you know.

 

[FishBlast]

The ammonia being possibly 0.5 might be the problem there. I don't know what you've meant by 0 / 0.5 in first post.

 

[BlueDragon]

I say that at the minuet 'cause it's showing to be inbetween yellow (zero) and light green (0.5). It's yellow-ish with green round the edges. So it's hard to say what it is really. Probably 0.5 though.

And there's nothing I can do other than what I'm already doing?

What about the slime, or lack of it? Is that caused by the ammonia? And if so why is it that I have it in my fry tank? I'm having to cycle that just the same as the main tank.

There's actually virtually no smell at all in the main tank. The fry tank smells lovely, of earthy compost. But the main tank has pretty much no smell at all. The more I think about it the more I think there's something wrong there. But I can't think why it should be that way. Or how it can.

 

[FishBlast]

I say that at the minuet 'cause it's showing to be inbetween yellow (zero) and light green (0.5). It's yellow-ish with green round the edges. So it's hard to say what it is really. Probably 0.5 though.

And there's nothing I can do other than what I'm already doing?

What about the slime, or lack of it? Is that caused by the ammonia? And if so why is it that I have it in my fry tank? I'm having to cycle that just the same as the main tank.

There's actually virtually no smell at all in the main tank. The fry tank smells lovely, of earthy compost. But the main tank has pretty much no smell at all. The more I think about it the more I think there's something wrong there. But I can't think why it should be that way. Or how it can.

My tank's been established since probably February, not entirely sure when it happened as I didn't have the kits back then. The slime has been on the walls all the time and the smell of plant compost is still present but I have to sniff real close to smell it.
All you can do is keep up the water changes till ammo hits 0 and stays that way, with dechlorinated water of course, and watch your fishes' activity.
Something must have added extra ammo. Any rotting plants there? Did you vacuum the floor of the tank?

 

[BlueDragon]

I use a gravel syphon to take the water out so the gravel gets cleaned every morning too. I do all the corners etc. There are no rotting plants, in fact they're starting to grow faster now and root better. I really can't think what it could be. I have those little snails you get on live plants, the little spotty shelled ones. Forget their name now. If one of them had died could that have done it? Even though they're so small? I haven't spotted anything though, but they're so small sometimes they look like the gravel.

I've tried to smell the walls of the tank by wiping my fingers along it and smelling them. Nothing though. Not even the plants smell of anything : /

Yeah, I use dechlorinater before the water goes in the tank, and in fact I'm slighty overdosing it 'cause I know you can and I thought it might help to keep any toxins down better. Only slighty though, don't worry. But I'm worried that it mustn't be working properly?

Lemon is still trying, bless him. It's hard to watch 'cause he's obviously not giving up yet so I ask myself should I be letting him keep trying? Is it cruel to do that 'cause I know what the end result will be even if he doesn't? Or is there a chance of some miracle where he'll get better again? I thought Sunny was better before he got ill again. I just don't want to give up if he hasn't, you know? He's starting to breath faster now though and he just hasn't got to energy.
I've realized I haven't got any clove oil in the house (I usually do 'cause I have impacted wisdom teeth like my mam does so use it for the pain whenever they start along with my tooth gel). So I'm going to go get some more today.

 

[FishBlast]

Ramshorn snails don't produce noticeable ammonia if they die in small numbers. It's a mass snail death that could do that. If yours are mostly alive, that shouldn't be it.
Maybe there is something caught under the gravel that you cannot see. Could be anything, including dead fry.
This is why I prefer sand. Nothing gets caught under it and everything stays at the surface (and is cleaned by the fish most of the time or the snails).

I don't know what you should do about Lemon, all I know is that when one of my swordtails showed rapid breathing back in January, it died several days after that, even though I've separated it and did water changes twice a day on her bowl. The tank was still cycling then and it was in the first week too.

 

[BlueDragon]

They're not Ramshorns, they're the other types. But I don't ever have that many so I can at least keep track of the adults. And as far as I can tell they're all there still.
I suppose it could be dead fry. They were trying to hide in amonst the gravel at times when I was finding them so it could be that one has got stuck. But I do give the gravel a good going over, and I know that it can suck fry up 'cause it's done it before. Would it not suck up a dead one too?

I was actually thinking of changing to sand. I chose gravel for my eventual river theme, with the river where I am having a gravely/pebbly bottom. But lots of people seem to prefer sand I can see why. I could still use some pebbles or stones if I did change so I was going to look into it.

Yeah, if I'm honest I know Lemon isn't going to last long. He's still trying and so I think that I should let him do that till it gets too much for him to cope with. His lovely bright yellow tail has had it's end ragged up by the gravel from him sitting on it lots. But his colours are still all there and he's still feeding, so I think it's only fair to let him deside really, isn't it?

 

[FishBlast]

The ones with long shell?

And nothing can completely clean the gravel, you'd have to get digging to find all the dead fry if any. A pump cannot suck stuff that sank deep under all the gravel.

I don't know, I never euthanised any creature before (as a mercy kill anyway, can't quite count the fossilis I fed to my cat for stinging and poisoning me) and I'm not taking lives of animals that have not attacked me or killed anything I love.
Then there are the double standards that a human can beg for a mercy kill (and humans actually have a voice, unlike animals who do not understand what a mercy kill is and maybe they don't even want it) and yet humans do not get killed because it is illegal even if they beg for it.

 

[BlueDragon]

No, not the long shelled ones either. I'll have to find a photo...

I beleive that in some cases it's best if you make the final desision for your pets as sometimes it can be for the best. I think it can be a hard thing to tell if they would like you to help them along or not though. I have had pets put to sleep at the vets in the past, but only as a last resort. Sometimes it's just not fair on them anymore.

Yeah, I'll have a dig around. I mean the fry are orange so they can't be that hard to miss right?

 

[FishBlast]

No, not the long shelled ones either. I'll have to find a photo...

I beleive that in some cases it's best if you make the final desision for your pets as sometimes it can be for the best. I think it can be a hard thing to tell if they would like you to help them along or not though. I have had pets put to sleep at the vets in the past, but only as a last resort. Sometimes it's just not fair on them anymore.

Yeah, I'll have a dig around. I mean the fry are orange so they can't be that hard to miss right?

Well, I don't know of any pest snails other than those two. If you have an apple snail invasion, that's pretty cool

I don't know, I am not able to take decisions when it comes to lives of creatures that did nothing wrong. The word "humane" to me means nothing more than a human invention, and is treated as thus, similar to how "time" is a human invention to measure changes in the world.
Also, to me life is a game, when you die, it's game over.
[in before "You are cruel / not human / etc"]

Dead fry would probably be white if they've been dead for a long time, or there may not be anything noticeable left there except the end result of ammonia.

 

[Bugdozer]

Well, I don't know of any pest snails other than those two.

I suspect it's either the bladder/tadpole/pouch snail or the common pond snail. Both are listed in the Snail Identification Guide in the Invertebrate section. I have some of the forst type in my tank and they do reproduce rapidly.

 

[FishBlast]

Well, I don't know of any pest snails other than those two.

I suspect it's either the bladder/tadpole/pouch snail or the common pond snail. Both are listed in the Snail Identification Guide in the Invertebrate section. I have some of the forst type in my tank and they do reproduce rapidly.

^ I WANT THEM!!!
They look so much like Lymnaea stagnalis! I had 2 Lymnea as pets but my mother said she didn't want them in the house and left them on the balcony during winter and they froze to death.
I only have these

But mine have a gray-pearl color and a blueish-black body.

 

[BlueDragon]

Yeah, those are them. The Pond Snails. I don't have many. The Guppies love to eat the eggs, and often when I'm changing the water it washes them off everything and I can scoop them out with the net. So I don't have that many left in the end. I like to have them around. Some people see them as pests, but I really don't see why. If you don't over feed then the few you'll have make a great clean-up crew : ) And they're so funny to watch!

 

[FishBlast]

Yeah, those are them. The Pond Snails. I don't have many. The Guppies love to eat the eggs, and often when I'm changing the water it washes them off everything and I can scoop them out with the net. So I don't have that many left in the end. I like to have them around. Some people see them as pests, but I really don't see why. If you don't over feed then the few you'll have make a great clean-up crew : ) And they're so funny to watch!

Like I do with my ramshorns, only that I just can't bear to lose even ONE. When I clean the filter, I put back whatever tiny ones I find into my tank. I even have 3 of them as clean-up crew in fry cage. They eat all the stuff that falls on the bottom.
They all came from one ramshorn snail I called Ramses. He arrived with my very first plant and had such a beautiful shell with black dots and a brownish body/head. But last month I found his empty shell. I was a bit sad. I guess they don't live very long... Or maybe some fish sucked him out or something...
One of his offspring has an interesting coloring too: he has a pearl shell and a black body that seems a bit blue. And is as big as Ramses was.