Trouble Breeding Your Fish?

[OldFishKeeper]

I have, for decades, wanted to breed Meteor Minnows aka, Long Finned White Clouds. With retirement combined with COVID, I had time to pursue this over the past two years.

I googled and found a seller with beautiful fish. I ordered and paid shipping for 10 of these beauties. After bringing them to maturity and giving them ideal conditions, they looked great but had no interest in spawning.

My luck has always been in question so, thinking they were all males (what are the chances?), I order ten more from the same supplier. Same thing!

I researched this problem and found that "some" breeders chemically sterilize their fish before selling to them. This is done to prevent competition.

Personally, I find this practice unconscionable. Apparently it is not illegal but I am all for making these breeders disclose their practice before us hobbyists get less than what we paid for. In fact, I am prepared to pay more for fish that I intend to breed.

Where would you stand on this?

 

[GaryE]

There are some nasty tricks - hormones in the water to 'make' males (they sell better) etc. My local stores very often get all male shipments of breedable fish. I've been looking for good threadfin rainbows for several years now, and have not seen a healthy female in about ten shipment/arrivals at local stores. When the male of a species looks good, that's what they sell, and since in many cases gender can be chemically manipulated....

I enjoy fish breeding, and unless I know the breeder, will not buy online fish. What makes them cheap is not necessarily what makes them desirable. I know we can't always find local breeders for what we want, but I'd look for someone here, or one another hobbyist group before I bought fishfarm fish for breeding.

One issue though - you can prove nothing. Maybe it is entirely unintentional, and you just got all males, or badly bred specimens. When you buy that red gourami that fades, and fades more, or any other hormone doctored fish, you can't make a case even for a complaint.

 

[OldFishKeeper]

There are some nasty tricks - hormones in the water to 'make' males (they sell better) etc. My local stores very often get all male shipments of breedable fish. I've been looking for good threadfin rainbows for several years now, and have not seen a healthy female in about ten shipment/arrivals at local stores. When the male of a species looks good, that's what they sell, and since in many cases gender can be chemically manipulated....

I enjoy fish breeding, and unless I know the breeder, will not buy online fish. What makes them cheap is not necessarily what makes them desirable. I know we can't always find local breeders for what we want, but I'd look for someone here, or one another hobbyist group before I bought fishfarm fish for breeding.

One issue though - you can prove nothing. Maybe it is entirely unintentional, and you just got all males, or badly bred specimens. When you buy that red gourami that fades, and fades more, or any other hormone doctored fish, you can't make a case even for a complaint.

I agree with you 100%, my fellow Canadian, eh!

There are no rules to disclose the breeding capabilities of fish but, I am fortunate to have met some "reputable" online sellers that have proven to me that I can trust. I will deal with them if I can't find a local breeder.

Thanks for your response.

 

[OldFishKeeper]

I agree with you 100%, my fellow Canadian, eh!

There are no rules to disclose the breeding capabilities of fish but, I am fortunate to have met some "reputable" online sellers that have proven to me that I can trust. I will deal with them if I can't find a local breeder.

Thanks for your response.

In addition, chemically or biologically engineered fish are of no interest to me. If I wanted "glow in the dark" fish, I would buy plastic ones, but I don't. Natural fish and natural aquascaping, ala Amano, is what I strive for.

 

[Colin_T]

OP, can you post some pictures of the fish se we can check to make sure you have both sexes?

I have never heard of chemical sterilisation in fish. It might be possible but the chemicals used could be expensive and hard to get.

What do you feed the fish?
How often do you feed them?
How often do you do water changes and how much do you change?
What temperature do you keep the fish at?
What temperature do you breed the fish at?
How do you go about breeding them?
Do the fish display to each other (flare their fins out and swim side by side)?

 

[Colin_T]

My local stores very often get all male shipments of breedable fish. I've been looking for good threadfin rainbows for several years now, and have not seen a healthy female in about ten shipment/arrivals at local stores.

Contact the American rainbowfish association or get in touch with Gary Lange.

Most shops don't buy female Iriatherina werneri because they don't get the big fins like the males. And most customers want the males.

 

[OldFishKeeper]

OP, can you post some pictures of the fish se we can check to make sure you have both sexes?

I have never heard of chemical sterilisation in fish. It might be possible but the chemicals used could be expensive and hard to get.

What do you feed the fish?
How often do you feed them?
How often do you do water changes and how much do you change?
What temperature do you keep the fish at?
What temperature do you breed the fish at?
How do you go about breeding them?
Do the fish display to each other (flare their fins out and swim side by side)?

Well, I can only say that I have kept fish for over 60 years.

I know what to feed fish. Mostly live BBS,

I feed them two to three times a day.

I change 20% of the water weekly.

White Clouds are kept at 70 to 72 F.

I have them in a fully planted tank with lots of cover for fry.

The fish do display to each other as you describe. I suggest you google chemical sterilization in fish and you will find that hormones are not expensive or hard to get in certain countries.

If you don't believe what I have posted that is fine by me.
I can't be bothered to post pictures. They all look like Long Finned White Clouds. None of them look like egg carrying females. Have a good day...

 

[Colin_T]

I wasn't questioning your fish keeping skills. I was just curious about what things you had done to try breeding them. There are a few things you can do to encourage fish to breed.

White clouds generally breed in spring when the water warms up. If you keep the fish in cold water for a few months, then raise the temperature, it can get them going.

Separating males and females for 5-6 days before putting them together can get them going.

Feeding more often with live foods can sometimes help. Mozzie larvae are probably the best food for getting fish to breed.

Doing big (75%) daily water changes with water that is a few degrees cooler than the tank water, can sometimes get fish going.

If none of the fish look like egg carrying females, perhaps the breeder is only sending out males. I knew a few people that bred killifish and cichlids and they only supplied males. They kept all the females for themselves to stop competition and so they could produce more young. Maybe you have a tank of males, it would explain why you don't have any fry.

 

[Colin_T]

I did a quick Google search for fish sterilisation. It seems most of it is aimed at aquaculture/ food fish and the process stops the fish turning into males or females. This would not be a good selling point for aquarium fishes where people like to see the colourful males. If your white clouds have lots of colour like male white clouds do, then it is unlikely they have been sterilised. The sterilised fish would not have the colour of the males.

 

[OldFishKeeper]

I wasn't questioning your fish keeping skills. I was just curious about what things you had done to try breeding them. There are a few things you can do to encourage fish to breed.

White clouds generally breed in spring when the water warms up. If you keep the fish in cold water for a few months, then raise the temperature, it can get them going.

Separating males and females for 5-6 days before putting them together can get them going.

Feeding more often with live foods can sometimes help. Mozzie larvae are probably the best food for getting fish to breed.

Doing big (75%) daily water changes with water that is a few degrees cooler than the tank water, can sometimes get fish going.

If none of the fish look like egg carrying females, perhaps the breeder is only sending out males. I knew a few people that bred killifish and cichlids and they only supplied males. They kept all the females for themselves to stop competition and so they could produce more young. Maybe you have a tank of males, it would explain why you don't have any fry.

Whatever you say. After paying for 20 fish, I would expect that some would be females. You can believe whatever you want.

I am done with this. Obviously, you have more implied experience. Others will debate this but, I will not.

 

[OldFishKeeper]

I did a quick Google search for fish sterilisation. It seems most of it is aimed at aquaculture/ food fish and the process stops the fish turning into males or females. This would not be a good selling point for aquarium fishes where people like to see the colourful males. If your white clouds have lots of colour like male white clouds do, then it is unlikely they have been sterilised. The sterilised fish would not have the colour of the males.

That is your opinion. Mine is completely different. Over and out.

 

[itiwhetu]

White clouds will only spawn on a pressure rise, and therefore spawn into the summer. They do not spawn during winter, when the atmospheric pressure is low.

 

[OldFishKeeper]

White clouds will only spawn on a pressure rise, and therefore spawn into the summer. They do not spawn during winter, when the atmospheric pressure is low.

It is difficult to sort out all the experts on this forum...so I will just give up.

 

[Colin_T]

How about getting some normal females from a shop and seeing if they breed with the long fin males. If they breed and you get viable eggs and fry, then the males are fine. If they breed and the eggs are all infertile, then you have sterile males.

 

[OldFishKeeper]

That is exactly what happened.