There Is Allot Of Argument

[FeroX]

My LFS we don't change the water on our 260g reef or ~1000g shark tank, ever. We just top of the shark tank's sump daily and the reef's whenever it needs to, and those are the two healthiest tanks in the store.

 

[Bignose]

No one has mentioned it yet, but what exactly does size have to do with the issue anyway? Everything we measure is a concentration -- ppm is technically a volume over volume (or any other like over like unit), but a ppm is almost identical to a mg/L for the dilute solutions that we deal with as fishkeepers. Anyway, sure the large tank increase the denominator (the L) of mg/L, but you get a larger tank to keep more or larger fish which increases the numerator (the mg).

5 ppm of ammonia (or nitrite or nitrate) is just as much trouble for the inhabitants of a 1000 gal tank as the in habitants of a 1 gal tank -- the only difference is that there are probably more inhabitants of that 1000 gal tank. The ppm is a ratio which scales with the size of the tank.

 

[tenohfive]

Something to throw into the mix, going on from what Bignose said:

The basic idea is to emulate nature, right? So get a big size tank-1500g or whatever-and put one neon in there. It'll live its life quite happily without worrying about nitrate build up, or anything else-because its in such low concentrations.

We go by a 1 inch of fish/1 gallon ratio, right? What do you think the ratio is in nature?

 

[iankent]

Something to throw into the mix, going on from what Bignose said:

The basic idea is to emulate nature, right? So get a big size tank-1500g or whatever-and put one neon in there. It'll live its life quite happily without worrying about nitrate build up, or anything else-because its in such low concentrations.

We go by a 1 inch of fish/1 gallon ratio, right? What do you think the ratio is in nature?

I'd imagine that varies a lot across the world, but would still be less dense on average than 1"/gallon *shrug* lets go count!

Bignose - as for the volume of water, you are right that we're dealing with the concentration of things, however, a bigger volume of water allows for a more varied range of life, for example in a 10000G body of water bacteria that would normally be eaten by fish in 2000G of water might now survive happily hidden away where the fish never go! And more varied life then allows for additional "problems" to be dealt with, such as the rising nitrates or other chemicals you might find lurking in the water!

 

[jarcher1390]

[/quote]

I'd imagine that varies a lot across the world, but would still be less dense on average than 1"/gallon *shrug* lets go count!

[/quote]
yeh lets go and count ill help

 

[iankent]

yeh lets go and count ill help

I'll start in Wales, you start in Cumbria - I'll go West, you go East, and I'll meet you back in the UK in about - a million years?

 

[kribensis12]

^ in all reality there isnt a rule in nature. There are as many fish as food provides.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

I just think while it's technically possible, if you fulfill a vast number of criteria with your filtration and so on, but in reality it'd be expensive and hard work to set a tank up like this, doing a weekly water change of 30% or there abouts is just a whole lot easier!!!

 

[shelaghfishface]

dont even speak to me about water changes

 

[geo7x]

Without water changes you wouldn't be controlling the amount of dissolved solids in the water and then you could get a pH crash- not good.

I was involved in the thread in the scientific forum and one of the other issues that came up was that I found out that if left uncontrolled then the biofilm which we all have in our established tanks could be get harmful bacteria incorporated into it. On the test carried out E-coli was one of the bacteria that was incorporated.

If you want to look further into this then I suggest you look at that thread in the scientific section, started by Spider Pig.

But to be honest what is the objective of this question? Is it too much to ask for people to put in the effort of doing weekly water changes to at least give the poor fish some fresh water?

Plus you would need a substantial amount of plants in (especially in a 300g+ tank, the maintenance on a heavily planted tank of that size would be beyond belief) a tank to cancel out the nitrates, and a planted tank like this would need a lot of time and maintenance, and with all the dead leaf material that you would get you may as well do a water change.

Honestly, is it too much to ask for people to do a water change these days??

 

[sykogngsta]

i know a few people with indoor ponds
key word INDOOR
INDOOR
INDOOR

last time i checked Mr.12 IT DOESNT RAIN INDOORS!

Thanks for being Sarcastic Mr. Texan! Gotta Love it!( incase you couldnt tell, that was COMPLETELY SARCASTIC). Ohhh, and last itme i checked it didnt either! So, then what happens when your pond water evaporates? It magically fills up again by itself? Didnt think so =]

Doesn't your tank water evaporate, then you fillit up again also. So i guess its sorta like raining.

 

[chr15_8]

NOT TRUE WHATSOEVER. Fish need fresh water to survive. Also, if you were rasiing baby fish, they owuld only get so big, becasue they let off growth hormones. Once there are to many growth hormones, they stop growing. Also, how would a 300g tank be any different form a 30g bsdies it has more room for mistakes, and takes longer for nitrate to build up?

dont agree tbh.

my koi pond has been running for about 5 years or so.

we flush the filters out and at most loose about 50 gallons. im alwas told for koi mature water is better. rain water is bad as it has lots of unfilterd pollutants where as tap was has chlorine which helps remove them and then put though a water purifier to remove the chlorine and other rubbish

 

[andywg]

Plus you would need a substantial amount of plants in (especially in a 300g+ tank, the maintenance on a heavily planted tank of that size would be beyond belief) a tank to cancel out the nitrates, and a planted tank like this would need a lot of time and maintenance, and with all the dead leaf material that you would get you may as well do a water change.

Not really, cultivating algae in a remote are will deal with ammonia and phosphates at source and leave one with no nitrites or nitrates ever.

As I said before, if it can be made to work for SW tanks with far more sensitive creatures (such as SPS corals) why can't it be ported across to FW?

Honestly, is it too much to ask for people to do a water change these days??

Alternatively, is it too much to ask for people to explore the hypothetical (and radically different) methods that may be possible to use?

 

[geo7x]

Not really, cultivating algae in a remote are will deal with ammonia and phosphates at source and leave one with no nitrites or nitrates ever.

Yes that is perhaps a more practical alternative to the planted tank

However I don't see how levels of dissolved solids and levels of (harmful) bacteria can be controlled in a closed system.

Alternatively, is it too much to ask for people to explore the hypothetical (and radically different) methods that may be possible to use?

Of course not if you are some sort of biologist in this field or wish to explore this as a broader project.
However when people seem to enquire about what they can do to stop doing water changes on their home aquarium I see sticking to water changes as the simplest method, thinking practically .

 

[kribensis12]

NOT TRUE WHATSOEVER. Fish need fresh water to survive. Also, if you were rasiing baby fish, they owuld only get so big, becasue they let off growth hormones. Once there are to many growth hormones, they stop growing. Also, how would a 300g tank be any different form a 30g bsdies it has more room for mistakes, and takes longer for nitrate to build up?

dont agree tbh.

my koi pond has been running for about 5 years or so.

we flush the filters out and at most loose about 50 gallons. im alwas told for koi mature water is better. rain water is bad as it has lots of unfilterd pollutants where as tap was has chlorine which helps remove them and then put though a water purifier to remove the chlorine and other rubbish

Koi are extremely hardy, and your water is still mature, you still have bacteria and everything. Our rain water isnt polluted, becasue i looked into it with some sort of water society and i also asked my Earth Club teacher and she said they tested it a couple years ago adn supposedly its not that bad. I've used rain water before in tanks with no side effects, and would do it again if we got a substantial amount of rain to use in a water change. I have also tested it for nitrates and everytihng and we have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites,m and 5 nitrates. And water dosent get very mature, becasue there isnt much if any Beneficial bacteria in it, all the bacteria is in miniscule crevices in the rocks, filter pads, and just about everywhere else.