I wouldn't get hillstream loaches. They need cooler water than most fish, and fast flowing water. They are not easy to find compatible fish for.
Shrimps and nerites are a much better choice
Shrimps and nerites are a much better choice
The 20g Long Progress
- Thread starter Sovereignty
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Sovereignty
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I'm curious, because from the vids i've seen and some pages I've read, people have kept hillstream loaches in a wide array of setups, and some have bred them outside the iconic 'cold, fast moving water' setups. It's also happened for a few other fish i've thought of keeping where I've researched in to them, found them to be suitable based off that info, then come here and people say "NO! Don't keep those fish". Seems like no matter what fish I think of getting people tell me no. xD Wanted corys, ppl said no, must have sand! Even though ive read from multiple sources that aquasoil is smooth and small enough for them. Celestial Pearl Danios? Nope, even though I've read they should be ok, been told no. Now loaches, I've read... should be fine... and again been told no. I don't get it.I wouldn't get hillstream loaches. They need cooler water than most fish, and fast flowing water. They are not easy to find compatible fish for.
Shrimps and nerites are a much better choice
The fish people have recommended is almost consistently are neon tetras, mollys/platys... like the normal run of the mill fish that I DONT want. Makes me just want to just say to heck with it and get what I want because it's gotten to the point that trying to get recommendations on fish is just depressing lol
The trouble is that anyone can post a video or write a page without knowing the needs of the fish.
This is the species most commonly sold as hillstream loach, there are others but the care is the same.
There few fish which eat algae and not all of them will eat the same algae; and there are species of algae which nothing eats.
I have cherry shrimps in a small tank and amano shrimps in my main tank. I have a small Clithon nerite in the same tank and several Neritina nerites in the main tank. Yes I do get algae but mainly on the glass walls where it is easy to scrape off.
There are a lot more fish than neon tetras and mollies. The first thing to do is find your water hardness. Then take a trip to as many local shops as you can find to see what they stock. Ignore everything the store workers tell you, just make a note of all the fish you like (preferably their Latin names as common names can vary from store to store) then look them up on Seriously Fish. Do they need the same hardness as your water? Do the ones which match the hardness like the same temperature and water flow? Do any of them grow too big for your tank? Are any of them big enough to eat any others on the list? Are any so territorial they'll harass their tank mates to death?
As you go through the list of fish that catch your eye you'll have fish that don't like your water, fish which don't match their requirements so you'll need to choose one or other and so on till you have a list of fish you like which will do well in your tank.
This is the species most commonly sold as hillstream loach, there are others but the care is the same.
There few fish which eat algae and not all of them will eat the same algae; and there are species of algae which nothing eats.
I have cherry shrimps in a small tank and amano shrimps in my main tank. I have a small Clithon nerite in the same tank and several Neritina nerites in the main tank. Yes I do get algae but mainly on the glass walls where it is easy to scrape off.
There are a lot more fish than neon tetras and mollies. The first thing to do is find your water hardness. Then take a trip to as many local shops as you can find to see what they stock. Ignore everything the store workers tell you, just make a note of all the fish you like (preferably their Latin names as common names can vary from store to store) then look them up on Seriously Fish. Do they need the same hardness as your water? Do the ones which match the hardness like the same temperature and water flow? Do any of them grow too big for your tank? Are any of them big enough to eat any others on the list? Are any so territorial they'll harass their tank mates to death?
As you go through the list of fish that catch your eye you'll have fish that don't like your water, fish which don't match their requirements so you'll need to choose one or other and so on till you have a list of fish you like which will do well in your tank.
I really get this feeling, sometimes writing online can be blunt and we miss details that would make what we are saying make sense. But equally, when we say no to someone about a species or group we don't always offer an alternative and you sit there thinking oh well better not get any fish then! Or you go the other way and think - "these people are ridiculous I'll do what I want" - neither is a good outcome for any of us, you move away from our support and we don't get to follow your awesome tank.
So here we go - what do you want to keep in the tank and what are your water stats (particularly hardness)s? A 20 long has tons of options for any water chemistry and we can get some.
Also got to mention how awesome your plants are! You've got some really really hard plants in there like the utricularia graminifolia - such a hard plant but I can see some good growth on what you have already!
Wills
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Sovereignty
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To an extent I have done this. I've tried to look for fish that will do well in my parameters but the problem comes a lot of places give such a wide range of what they like... -shrug-The trouble is that anyone can post a video or write a page without knowing the needs of the fish.
This is the species most commonly sold as hillstream loach, there are others but the care is the same.
There few fish which eat algae and not all of them will eat the same algae; and there are species of algae which nothing eats.
I have cherry shrimps in a small tank and amano shrimps in my main tank. I have a small Clithon nerite in the same tank and several Neritina nerites in the main tank. Yes I do get algae but mainly on the glass walls where it is easy to scrape off.
There are a lot more fish than neon tetras and mollies. The first thing to do is find your water hardness. Then take a trip to as many local shops as you can find to see what they stock. Ignore everything the store workers tell you, just make a note of all the fish you like (preferably their Latin names as common names can vary from store to store) then look them up on Seriously Fish. Do they need the same hardness as your water? Do the ones which match the hardness like the same temperature and water flow? Do any of them grow too big for your tank? Are any of them big enough to eat any others on the list? Are any so territorial they'll harass their tank mates to death?
As you go through the list of fish that catch your eye you'll have fish that don't like your water, fish which don't match their requirements so you'll need to choose one or other and so on till you have a list of fish you like which will do well in your tank.
I use remineralized RO water.
My pH is about 6.5 ish, (it's a light pale green, so i can't tell if its 6.4 or 6.6)
my gH takes 9 drops, so about 160ppm which from the charts I've seen is slightly hard to hard water.
so for example... the celestial pearl danios. LOL the site you linked says they like a pH range of 6.5 -7.5... check and a gH of 90-268 ppm... check. and yet i've had some folks in a FB fish group say I can't do those fish?
So if a website tells me one thing... and actual people tell me another... who do i believe?
I'm tempted to just go for it and if it works great, if not, then now I know because I'm told 2 different things by different sources...
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Sovereignty
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Thank you, yes a lot of people have said 'no' but not given any alternatives, or they go "just do neon tetras!" like really? lol
My pH is about 6.5 ish, (it's a light pale green, so i can't tell if its 6.4 or 6.6)
my gH takes 9 drops, so about 160ppm which from the charts I've seen is slightly hard to hard water.
I use remineralized RO water.
I run co2 as well.
I originally wanted to do a big school of Celestial pearl danios and some corydoras... maybe some shrimp (colorful ones) as I have a moss wall going and I think that would be sick. But have been told no to the CPDs and no to the cory's because I don't use sand... but i've read multiple places that fine aquasoil, like I use, has been fine... and i've had some ppl say no to shrimp as well.... like.... i can't win.
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The thing to remember is that people are trying to help - and its also upto you to interpret what you get told and make a choice on what you want to do. As an example I'm learning about Malawi at the moment and I get conflicting info on how to combine species and no one really spells it out so I'm having to make some judgements and if I choose to I'll find people that agree with those judgements and people that dont. Some aspects of fish keeping are quite nailed down and if you do X, Y will happen but other times someone will point something out based on a bad experience or sometimes from certain research or scientific papers without direct knowledge. All the advice is given to help you avoid making mistakes that others have learned and give you and your fish the best chance of working. 6.5 is nice and acidic and enough to work with, Gh of 9 is also soft by most measures but since you use RO you could probably get that down if you wanted to but I dont think you need to.
I would agree with Byron about the Corydoras that sand is a must have for them due to their natural behaviour - I'm not sure why soil would impact CPD's. Some people are really against soil, there are negatives but for me I don't think its an evil like others. The negatives are the ammonia leech at the start, the fact it can impact water hardness (though IME not that much or for that long - but I have quite a high KH so others might have different experiences) and also it isnt a fine substrate like pool sand which a lot of people really like and also a broad range of fish have as a wellbeing need. Some aquascapers are actually moving away from exposed soil MD Fishtanks is a good example where he builds layered substrates (which again some people will say is unnecessary but demonstrably works and provides a fine sand substrate) or others 'terrace' their tanks so soil at the back sand at the front rather than just the carpet over soil.
I think one thing to differentiate between soil and carpet vs something like gravel the benefits are that fish that live low down and don't filter the sand but it is soft because they are laying on leaves not stones. So while Corys and most loaches are perhaps not a great choice here species that live on surfaces (rather than just bottom dwellers) might extend your options.
If you want to go with CPD's (interested to see why people don't want you to) I would go with that as a big group of around 20 and a great companion and biotope correct fish would be the Rosy Loach, a nice and active red fish with a cute face and barbels - comes from shallow, plant-rich habitat and it just feels like it makes a lot of sense. https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/yunnanilus-sp-rosy/
If you wanted to add a feature fish how about Dario sp. Myanmar aka Black Tiger Badis - glorious fish, stunning tiny, intelligent, interactive species. Black spots on a light base on the face and red and white stripes down the body! A 20 long is 30 inches right? If so in that size tank I'd do a group of 6 and if you get 2 males in there you'd be ok - its advised to keep just 1 male but this is often based on a 30-60cm tank so in a 90cm tank I'm ok with it - and while it is not from exactly the same lakes and rivers as CPDs and Rosy Loaches all from the same country so an interesting biotope in the making.
I'm not sure what the overall numbers look like in this tank but you want at least 20 of the CPDs for confidence otherwise you wont see them, you could look at the 8 of the Rosy Loaches and then somewhere between 3-6 of the Black Tiger Badis. The Loches are the biggest fish in here around 1.5 inches but you've got a lot of colour in here and interesting behaviour.
In terms of shrimp, I have Cherry Shrimp and Amano Shrimp in my tanks - my Amanos live and have lived on a mix of carpeted soil, sands and very fine gravels and they are all over 2 years old now (and where big when I got them). My Cherries live on a large grain sand but the tank is very dense with plants. Perhaps some of the more delicate species of shrimp might be advisable to keep them on fine sand in a dedicated set up but Cherries (and their common colour varieties) or Amanos I think would fit in here nicely.
Hope it helps
Wills
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Sovereignty
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I appreciate the info thank you.The thing to remember is that people are trying to help - and its also upto you to interpret what you get told and make a choice on what you want to do. As an example I'm learning about Malawi at the moment and I get conflicting info on how to combine species and no one really spells it out so I'm having to make some judgements and if I choose to I'll find people that agree with those judgements and people that dont. Some aspects of fish keeping are quite nailed down and if you do X, Y will happen but other times someone will point something out based on a bad experience or sometimes from certain research or scientific papers without direct knowledge. All the advice is given to help you avoid making mistakes that others have learned and give you and your fish the best chance of working. 6.5 is nice and acidic and enough to work with, Gh of 9 is also soft by most measures but since you use RO you could probably get that down if you wanted to but I dont think you need to.
I would agree with Byron about the Corydoras that sand is a must have for them due to their natural behaviour - I'm not sure why soil would impact CPD's. Some people are really against soil, there are negatives but for me I don't think its an evil like others. The negatives are the ammonia leech at the start, the fact it can impact water hardness (though IME not that much or for that long - but I have quite a high KH so others might have different experiences) and also it isnt a fine substrate like pool sand which a lot of people really like and also a broad range of fish have as a wellbeing need. Some aquascapers are actually moving away from exposed soil MD Fishtanks is a good example where he builds layered substrates (which again some people will say is unnecessary but demonstrably works and provides a fine sand substrate) or others 'terrace' their tanks so soil at the back sand at the front rather than just the carpet over soil.
I think one thing to differentiate between soil and carpet vs something like gravel the benefits are that fish that live low down and don't filter the sand but it is soft because they are laying on leaves not stones. So while Corys and most loaches are perhaps not a great choice here species that live on surfaces (rather than just bottom dwellers) might extend your options.
If you want to go with CPD's (interested to see why people don't want you to) I would go with that as a big group of around 20 and a great companion and biotope correct fish would be the Rosy Loach, a nice and active red fish with a cute face and barbels - comes from shallow, plant-rich habitat and it just feels like it makes a lot of sense. https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/yunnanilus-sp-rosy/
If you wanted to add a feature fish how about Dario sp. Myanmar aka Black Tiger Badis - glorious fish, stunning tiny, intelligent, interactive species. Black spots on a light base on the face and red and white stripes down the body! A 20 long is 30 inches right? If so in that size tank I'd do a group of 6 and if you get 2 males in there you'd be ok - its advised to keep just 1 male but this is often based on a 30-60cm tank so in a 90cm tank I'm ok with it - and while it is not from exactly the same lakes and rivers as CPDs and Rosy Loaches all from the same country so an interesting biotope in the making.
I'm not sure what the overall numbers look like in this tank but you want at least 20 of the CPDs for confidence otherwise you wont see them, you could look at the 8 of the Rosy Loaches and then somewhere between 3-6 of the Black Tiger Badis. The Loches are the biggest fish in here around 1.5 inches but you've got a lot of colour in here and interesting behaviour.
In terms of shrimp, I have Cherry Shrimp and Amano Shrimp in my tanks - my Amanos live and have lived on a mix of carpeted soil, sands and very fine gravels and they are all over 2 years old now (and where big when I got them). My Cherries live on a large grain sand but the tank is very dense with plants. Perhaps some of the more delicate species of shrimp might be advisable to keep them on fine sand in a dedicated set up but Cherries (and their common colour varieties) or Amanos I think would fit in here nicely.
Hope it helps
Wills
After calling around to my LFSs and talking to a few of em, the ones that get CPDs in don't get a lot and they sell out fast and don't get them often enough to allow me to slowly add more to their group size in a steady manner, I've decided to drop them. Im sad because I really wanted these fish. I'm going with my 2nd choice, the rummynose tetra. I won't be able to have as many of them, but i think i can still maintain a healthy group size down the road and they are a popular and easy to find fish here.
I've went out to one of my LFSs and got 6 rummys and 2 nerite snails for now to see how they fair
I'm still debating on shrimp. I'd like to if I can find ones I enjoy. I really want a bamboo shrimp, but now my worry after a bit more research, is that they're avid jumpers and since my tank doesnt have a lid due to the giant log... mmmm i'll have to think about it. I know everything can jump and the risk is always there. P: but we'll see. I'll have to dig some more in to some nice bottom dwellers.
I really like the CPDs as well but don’t have room for them right now, and yes, they are hard to find. Rummy nose tetras are pretty nice too.I appreciate the info thank you.
After calling around to my LFSs and talking to a few of em, the ones that get CPDs in don't get a lot and they sell out fast and don't get them often enough to allow me to slowly add more to their group size in a steady manner, I've decided to drop them. Im sad because I really wanted these fish. I'm going with my 2nd choice, the rummynose tetra. I won't be able to have as many of them, but i think i can still maintain a healthy group size down the road and they are a popular and easy to find fish here.
I've went out to one of my LFSs and got 6 rummys and 2 nerite snails for now to see how they fair
I'm still debating on shrimp. I'd like to if I can find ones I enjoy. I really want a bamboo shrimp, but now my worry after a bit more research, is that they're avid jumpers and since my tank doesnt have a lid due to the giant log... mmmm i'll have to think about it. I know everything can jump and the risk is always there. P: but we'll see. I'll have to dig some more in to some nice bottom dwellers.
My first suggestion is not to acquire any fish without running the idea past the form members. There are serious issues with the six rummynose tetras. Before I get to those, some general observations.
This hobby deals solely with nature. We maintain living creatures (fish, invertebrates, plants) in a very artificial environment. When we set up an aquarium, because it is dealing with the natural world, we are bound by the laws of the natural world when it comes to biology, chemistry, microbiology, etc. We cannot change nature, we can only work with it.
Continuing on with fish...every species has very specific requirements. Freshwater fish have only one thing in common--they all live in freshwater. But each species has evolved to live in very specific freshwater when it comes to the chemistry--GH, pH, temperature--and very specific environmental factors such as water flow, substrate, numbers, other species, hardscape (wood, rock, plants), light...all of these impact the daily life of the fish. Providing an environment resembling the natural habitat of each fish species is the only way to provide the best for that fish. And the consequences of not doing this are significant.
To the rummynose. First, this is a shoaling/schooling characin species, and that mean it needs 10+ individuals. However, this is basic for shoaling/schooling fish, and this particular species is a lot more demanding--it needs more than 10. I would not go below 12-15, and preferably 20+. This is also an active swimming species. It constantly swims the length of the tank. This is not boredom, it is the absolute need of the species. They do this in their habitat too. By contrast, neon tetras or cardinal tetras are not active swimmers at all. This means these latter tetras need less space than the rummynose. I would not put rummynose in anything less than a 3-foot length (90cm) tank. A group of 12-15 in this long a tank is minimum. I can assure you that the fish will be affected. Stress, which is the direct cause of over 90% of all disease issues aquarium fish experience.
A group of celestial pearl danios would be a far better choice here, from the aspect of tank size. This species should have a group of 20, and in this tank could be the only fish. A perfect habitat, which means they would be "happy," and that means healthy. You should always acquire all of the intended number of a species together, at the same time. This will allow them to settle in faster with less chance of ich or other issues. And it allows the natural hierarchy to establish properly, which is a big issue with this species because the males are on the feisty side.
It is unfortunate that there i so much conflicting information in this hobby. That is the fault of the internet. In the days when we only had books and reliable magazines we got relatively good advice, so far as we understood the scientific data. We have learned much more from scientific advancement, but unfortunately there is a plethora of individuals who do not understand the science and advise all sorts of mindless drivel, and they are accepted as "knowledgeable." I do not even read websites that are not written by an individual I know to be educated, knowledgeable, experienced. When someone like Heiko Bleher or Ian Fuller says Corydoras must have sand, I know they are trustworthy because they have spent their adult lives--each of these individuals is now in his 70's--collecting these fish in South America, studying their habitats, examining their food items, and in Ian's case spawning dozens of species for more than 50 years.
I will end with a comment on numbers. Shoaling/schooling fish like rummys need a group because this is programmed into the genetics of the species. Scientific studies have now shown that a groupp of 5 fish of a shoaling/schooling characin will experienced increased aggression compared to a group of ten. The fish in the smaller group also show a marked latency to feed. When a fish is reluctant to feed we should understand that this is a serious issue to that species.
This hobby deals solely with nature. We maintain living creatures (fish, invertebrates, plants) in a very artificial environment. When we set up an aquarium, because it is dealing with the natural world, we are bound by the laws of the natural world when it comes to biology, chemistry, microbiology, etc. We cannot change nature, we can only work with it.
Continuing on with fish...every species has very specific requirements. Freshwater fish have only one thing in common--they all live in freshwater. But each species has evolved to live in very specific freshwater when it comes to the chemistry--GH, pH, temperature--and very specific environmental factors such as water flow, substrate, numbers, other species, hardscape (wood, rock, plants), light...all of these impact the daily life of the fish. Providing an environment resembling the natural habitat of each fish species is the only way to provide the best for that fish. And the consequences of not doing this are significant.
To the rummynose. First, this is a shoaling/schooling characin species, and that mean it needs 10+ individuals. However, this is basic for shoaling/schooling fish, and this particular species is a lot more demanding--it needs more than 10. I would not go below 12-15, and preferably 20+. This is also an active swimming species. It constantly swims the length of the tank. This is not boredom, it is the absolute need of the species. They do this in their habitat too. By contrast, neon tetras or cardinal tetras are not active swimmers at all. This means these latter tetras need less space than the rummynose. I would not put rummynose in anything less than a 3-foot length (90cm) tank. A group of 12-15 in this long a tank is minimum. I can assure you that the fish will be affected. Stress, which is the direct cause of over 90% of all disease issues aquarium fish experience.
A group of celestial pearl danios would be a far better choice here, from the aspect of tank size. This species should have a group of 20, and in this tank could be the only fish. A perfect habitat, which means they would be "happy," and that means healthy. You should always acquire all of the intended number of a species together, at the same time. This will allow them to settle in faster with less chance of ich or other issues. And it allows the natural hierarchy to establish properly, which is a big issue with this species because the males are on the feisty side.
It is unfortunate that there i so much conflicting information in this hobby. That is the fault of the internet. In the days when we only had books and reliable magazines we got relatively good advice, so far as we understood the scientific data. We have learned much more from scientific advancement, but unfortunately there is a plethora of individuals who do not understand the science and advise all sorts of mindless drivel, and they are accepted as "knowledgeable." I do not even read websites that are not written by an individual I know to be educated, knowledgeable, experienced. When someone like Heiko Bleher or Ian Fuller says Corydoras must have sand, I know they are trustworthy because they have spent their adult lives--each of these individuals is now in his 70's--collecting these fish in South America, studying their habitats, examining their food items, and in Ian's case spawning dozens of species for more than 50 years.
I will end with a comment on numbers. Shoaling/schooling fish like rummys need a group because this is programmed into the genetics of the species. Scientific studies have now shown that a groupp of 5 fish of a shoaling/schooling characin will experienced increased aggression compared to a group of ten. The fish in the smaller group also show a marked latency to feed. When a fish is reluctant to feed we should understand that this is a serious issue to that species.
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Sovereignty
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The store only had 6. So all I could get was 6. I called around too and most places that normally get them are out until their new shipment arrives. And I was always told to add fish stock in batches (most, though like cichlids it's best to add their full stock at once) to avoid overburdening your friendly bacteria neighbors. Is that not the case anymore?
It's a 20long so 30inch. Just 6inch short of your 3ft. Everything I've read have suggested 20g minimum or more with a group size of around 8-12.
I have every intention to add more than 6. 6 was just what they had.
And like I said CPDs are out as they are too difficult to get ahold of and I dont feel like dealing with that stress and playing phone tag with 6 different LFSs during my work week and trying to drive there and back home before I have to leave for work.
If a tank is fishless cycled using 3 ppm ammonia there should be enough bacteria to add the whole proposed stocking at the same time.
If a tank is heavily planted the plants should cope with a whole shoal of fish added at the same time.
It's with fish-in cycling or when a tank has just a few plants that fish should be added a few at a time so the bacteria are not overwhelmed and the few plants can cope with the ammonia load.
If a tank is heavily planted the plants should cope with a whole shoal of fish added at the same time.
It's with fish-in cycling or when a tank has just a few plants that fish should be added a few at a time so the bacteria are not overwhelmed and the few plants can cope with the ammonia load.
This is not advisable. I understand the underlying issue of adding few fish at a time, to not overwhelm the nitrifying bacteria. But this is firstly not accurate in reality. and second it is secondary to providing the better handling of the fish to avoid stress.
The ammonia-oxidizing bacteria can multiply by binary division within say 12 hours. It takes the second stage nitrite-oxidating bacteria longer, but the other factor is live plants. Assuming you have live plants including floating species in this tank (all these fish being discussed need them) the plants will take up all the ammonia within hours. Tom Barr once told me that it is virtually impossible to add so many fish to an established tank with floating plants that it would ever cause issues with ammonia.
Shoaling/schooling fish are without question less stressed the more there are. So right off, adding all 20 of this species (CPD here) is a big benefit. But second, this species is hierarchial, the males will continually challenge one another, and with the larger group going in together, theis sorts itself out quickly with usually no problems. Having say six, then adding six more two, three or whatever weeks later can cause serious aggression with such species. This adds more stress to all of them, not to mention the physical aggression issue.
This is inaccurate. A 20g for rummynose is inhumane because it ignores the needs of the fish, and this causes stress and that long-term means other likely diseases and always a shorter lifespan because of the stress. Thinking has changed with the advent of more scientific study. Some sites like Seriously Fish need revision on this aspect of numbers, though I know the rummynose profiles have been revised because I did them. Aside from this, the plethora of misinformation on the internet with respect to this hobby is staggering. I know how difficult this makes it for especially beginners, who want to do what is best but get such differing "advice." I cannot fix the internet.
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Trimmed my ludwigia after taking the picture hehe. Wanted to replant some to fill in a section and it was also getting so thick it was blocking a good portion of light from the other plants around. Trimmed up my carpet too.
took the powerhead out cus i dont think the rummys were enjoying the flow much and now theyre much more adventurous.
took the powerhead out cus i dont think the rummys were enjoying the flow much and now theyre much more adventurous.
Why did they tell you that you can't do CPD's?
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