is there something you can buy like a chemical or filter that reduces tannings or makes it go away, ive had my tank setup for ages now and the big bit of wood i have still releses it, i know some people like it, and say its good for the fish but it makes my tank look really dark, water changes dont really help...
Tannins
- Thread starter BOD
- Start date
Bloo
~ I learn something new ~ ~~~~ every day ~~~~
You mean the "tannis" that leach from the wood ?
You can either pre-soak it in a bucket of warm water (replaced daily) for a week or so.
And/or (if small enough) boil in a pot for 10 minutes (not longer).
And/or place a carbon pad in your filter - this will help to some extent, but depends on the wood and wood / water ratio.
Water changes is the other thing that helps - after a few weeks it should be much reduced
You could also lightly "scrub" it with a soft dish (pot) brush under running water.
Other than that - not much else really.
Edit: just saw your pics in your other thread, and now see what you mean. It's quite yellow and the wood is really too large for a pot to boil.
Try some weekly 50% water changes (only if your tank stats are absolutely stable) and a carbon pad replaced every couple of weeks.
You can either pre-soak it in a bucket of warm water (replaced daily) for a week or so.
And/or (if small enough) boil in a pot for 10 minutes (not longer).
And/or place a carbon pad in your filter - this will help to some extent, but depends on the wood and wood / water ratio.
Water changes is the other thing that helps - after a few weeks it should be much reduced
You could also lightly "scrub" it with a soft dish (pot) brush under running water.
Other than that - not much else really.
Edit: just saw your pics in your other thread, and now see what you mean. It's quite yellow and the wood is really too large for a pot to boil.
Try some weekly 50% water changes (only if your tank stats are absolutely stable) and a carbon pad replaced every couple of weeks.
i know the woods huge, did think it was going to fit through the opening in the top of the tank, just about did, yea the tank stats are fine, its been in there ages now and i do quite large water changes, but still it doesnt change, i will do a few 50%'s then and also replace my carbon filter.
actualy its called "tannins"
and i would STRONGLY urge you NOT to make 50% water changes. its too much. your in discus territory there and run the risk of all kinds of bacterial problems especially where your tanks balance is concerned. my own advice would be to stick with your weekly 30% water changes and sit it out. or remove the bogwood
and i would STRONGLY urge you NOT to make 50% water changes. its too much. your in discus territory there and run the risk of all kinds of bacterial problems especially where your tanks balance is concerned. my own advice would be to stick with your weekly 30% water changes and sit it out. or remove the bogwood
Bloo
~ I learn something new ~ ~~~~ every day ~~~~
most people with planted tanks do 50% every week.
FBF, as bloozoo said, 50% water changes are not too much. The overwhelming majority of bacteria are sessile, not mobile and attached to all the surfaces in the tank. Put another way, almost none of the bacteria you want to keep is swimming around in the water. Therefore, for your fishs' sake, so long as you match the pH, the temperature, and hardness of the water, you can do almost as large a water change as physically possible.
There really are only 2 cases where large water changes should not be done: 1) If there is significant ammonia in the water and the water is very acidic, since the ammonia-ammonium balance could be disturbed too quickly and endanger the fish and 2) if every time you do a water change you gravel vac your undergravel filter. In this case, since the majority of bacteria are in the gravel, you shouldn't disturb them too much. It is possible, though unlikely, that you could disrupt the undergravel filter for a time. But, if you just take water out it is not a worry, and most fishkeepers do not use undergravel filters anyway. So again, match the water parameters and you can do pretty much whatever you want. Very good to know in case of emergencies.
There really are only 2 cases where large water changes should not be done: 1) If there is significant ammonia in the water and the water is very acidic, since the ammonia-ammonium balance could be disturbed too quickly and endanger the fish and 2) if every time you do a water change you gravel vac your undergravel filter. In this case, since the majority of bacteria are in the gravel, you shouldn't disturb them too much. It is possible, though unlikely, that you could disrupt the undergravel filter for a time. But, if you just take water out it is not a worry, and most fishkeepers do not use undergravel filters anyway. So again, match the water parameters and you can do pretty much whatever you want. Very good to know in case of emergencies.
let me explain.
buy making large water changes you illuminate most of the ammonia before the bacteria can begin to convert it. this controls the amount of bacteria that your tank can hold (very similar to the way you can control snail populations in tanks via your feeding of the fish) many people make the mistake of a large water change and done over a long period of time will mean that you are very likely to experience a spike in the tank when you add more fish or forget a water change, basically as soon as the ammonia reaches any normal level the tank is to delicate to cope with the extra load. this is basic tank cycle science
buy making large water changes you illuminate most of the ammonia before the bacteria can begin to convert it. this controls the amount of bacteria that your tank can hold (very similar to the way you can control snail populations in tanks via your feeding of the fish) many people make the mistake of a large water change and done over a long period of time will mean that you are very likely to experience a spike in the tank when you add more fish or forget a water change, basically as soon as the ammonia reaches any normal level the tank is to delicate to cope with the extra load. this is basic tank cycle science
Bloo
~ I learn something new ~ ~~~~ every day ~~~~
Who's saying anything about ammonia and spikes and the nitrogen cycle 
This is a stable tank - and as Bignose confirms, you can do pretty much anything to the water without any problems whatsoever. I've done several 100% changes (and gravel washes) when moving home - and never once experienced any spike, cycle, illness or death as a result.
Of course this is really not a good idea in a new / newly cycled tank, but seeing as I perform 50% on my planted tank on a weekly basis (as do many others) I see no reason why this can't be done in Bod's tank - especially on a short term basis - providing of course it's a mature and stable tank.
This is a stable tank - and as Bignose confirms, you can do pretty much anything to the water without any problems whatsoever. I've done several 100% changes (and gravel washes) when moving home - and never once experienced any spike, cycle, illness or death as a result.
Of course this is really not a good idea in a new / newly cycled tank, but seeing as I perform 50% on my planted tank on a weekly basis (as do many others) I see no reason why this can't be done in Bod's tank - especially on a short term basis - providing of course it's a mature and stable tank.
moeldner
Fish Crazy
Back on the tannins - I had a lrage piece of wood in my tank that has leached tannins now for a few months (maybe 4?). Anyway, in the last 2 weeks, my water has finally started to lighten up rapidly. I would stick with it for a while, performing your regular tank maintenance as you normally would, and it will eventually lighten up.
Who's saying anything about ammonia and spikes and the nitrogen cycle
This is a stable tank - and as Bignose confirms, you can do pretty much anything to the water without any problems whatsoever. I've done several 100% changes (and gravel washes) when moving home - and never once experienced any spike, cycle, illness or death as a result.
Of course this is really not a good idea in a new / newly cycled tank, but seeing as I perform 50% on my planted tank on a weekly basis (as do many others) I see no reason why this can't be done in Bod's tank - especially on a short term basis - providing of course it's a mature and stable tank.
im not here to argue with you, im here to help someone with a problem, im telling that person the way it is. you cannot have a stable tank doing large water changes and thats a fact. ive already explained the reason why, if you know better than science then please teach us all YOUR facts
the fact that you correct the guy with the word 'tannis' gives your opinions no credibility as far as im concerned
Synirr
"No one is a failure unless you try"
Just for future reference, based on past posts I've read, if Bignose disagrees with you, chances are it's because you're wrong
FBF, like Bignose said, the overwhelming majority of bacteria is in the gravel and filter media.... which means that doing large water changes isn't removing much of it. In a newer tank large water changes can indeed be dangerous, but they are perfectly fine in well established tanks such as the one we're talking about. Trust me on this one, I have 6 tanks ranging in size from 5 gallons to 80 that all get 40-50% water changes on a weekly basis, and I have never ever had a problem, even when adding a grotesque number of new fish all at once (one of my 10 gallons just got 4 new guys two weeks ago when I was switching some tank arrangements around)
FBF, like Bignose said, the overwhelming majority of bacteria is in the gravel and filter media.... which means that doing large water changes isn't removing much of it. In a newer tank large water changes can indeed be dangerous, but they are perfectly fine in well established tanks such as the one we're talking about. Trust me on this one, I have 6 tanks ranging in size from 5 gallons to 80 that all get 40-50% water changes on a weekly basis, and I have never ever had a problem, even when adding a grotesque number of new fish all at once (one of my 10 gallons just got 4 new guys two weeks ago when I was switching some tank arrangements around)
Dorkhedeos
Boss Major
well, he doesnt have discus
Who's saying anything about ammonia and spikes and the nitrogen cycle
This is a stable tank - and as Bignose confirms, you can do pretty much anything to the water without any problems whatsoever. I've done several 100% changes (and gravel washes) when moving home - and never once experienced any spike, cycle, illness or death as a result.
Of course this is really not a good idea in a new / newly cycled tank, but seeing as I perform 50% on my planted tank on a weekly basis (as do many others) I see no reason why this can't be done in Bod's tank - especially on a short term basis - providing of course it's a mature and stable tank.
im not here to argue with you, im here to help someone with a problem, im telling that person the way it is. you cannot have a stable tank doing large water changes and thats a fact. ive already explained the reason why, if you know better than science then please teach us all YOUR facts
the fact that you correct the guy with the word 'tannis' gives your opinions no credibility as far as im concerned
bignose is probably the most knowledgeable person on this forum when it comes to science, so i dont think anybody can argue with him, unless he is obviously wrong or is trying to fool us
(ive never seen him do either yet but it might be coming 
)
I change 50% to 80% weekly on my tanks. Someone needs to tell all the angels that are pairing & spawning that they shouldn't be so happy with their bad water.
This is the first time I have heard of ammonia illumination. If you are dechlorinating with a product that contains only sodium thiosulfate, and your water has chloramine, you will get an ammonia spike. Sodium thiosulfate breaks the bond between chlorine & ammonia in chloramine, leaving ammonia. It is designed for water with only chlorine, not chloramine. If you have enough bio filtration you can use it for smaler water changes, you can get into trouble using it for large water changes with chloramine.
Dechlorinators that state that they neuteralize chloramine as well as chlorine usualy contain sodium hydromethanesulfinate, which converts ammonia into ammonium. Use a good water conditioner like Seachem's Prime, and change all the water you want.
I have heard of getting an ammo spike in a neglected tank when it is vacced, the rotting food in the gravel causes a sudden ammo spike. Ammo lock is needed to clean tanks in this state. As long as the replacement water is the same hardness & pH as the water in the tank, you can do as large a water change as you want, as often as you want.
If the piece is too big to boil, get as large a bucket as you need that the wood will fit in. Boil some pots of water, pour it over the wood in the bucket.
This is the first time I have heard of ammonia illumination. If you are dechlorinating with a product that contains only sodium thiosulfate, and your water has chloramine, you will get an ammonia spike. Sodium thiosulfate breaks the bond between chlorine & ammonia in chloramine, leaving ammonia. It is designed for water with only chlorine, not chloramine. If you have enough bio filtration you can use it for smaler water changes, you can get into trouble using it for large water changes with chloramine.
Dechlorinators that state that they neuteralize chloramine as well as chlorine usualy contain sodium hydromethanesulfinate, which converts ammonia into ammonium. Use a good water conditioner like Seachem's Prime, and change all the water you want.
I have heard of getting an ammo spike in a neglected tank when it is vacced, the rotting food in the gravel causes a sudden ammo spike. Ammo lock is needed to clean tanks in this state. As long as the replacement water is the same hardness & pH as the water in the tank, you can do as large a water change as you want, as often as you want.
If the piece is too big to boil, get as large a bucket as you need that the wood will fit in. Boil some pots of water, pour it over the wood in the bucket.
Shoot Synirr, Dorkhedeos, you two are gonna give me a swell head. The two of you catch many more threads than I usually do, and there have been many cases where I didn't need to input anything after the two of you posted. OK, love fest over.
I am going to guess that illumination = elimination, since the bacteria as far as I know are not photo-sensitive and will work just a well in the day as in the night.
Secondly, you can build up to a stable tank even with large water changes. And large water changes may really be needed in the beginning if the fish are going to suffer or even die.
Let me illustrate with an example. Let's begin with enough fish in a tank to increase the ammonia 4 ppm per day. Only enough bacteria to process 0.1 ppm per day to start. In general, at most room temperatures bacteria will double every day, so on day 2, the bacteria can process 0.2 ppm, and so on.
Day 1: 4.0 - 0.1 = 3.9 ppm ammonia in the tank At this point, those fish are in trouble, maybe dead. Let's say this tank owner gets on the forums and is told to do a large water change. 50% off is 1.95 ppm
Day 2: 1.95 + 4.0 - 0.2 = 5.75. 50% = 2.8
and so on
Day 3: 6.5 after change: 3.2
Day 4: 6.4 after change: 3.2
Day 5: 5.6 after: 2.8
Day 6: 3.6 after: 1.8
Day 7: 0 since the bacteria colony has grown large enough to consume all the ammonia. With the changes, the tank still got cycled, and the maximum ammonia level the fish were exposed to was 6.5.
By comparison, if you didn't do water changes, the maximum ammonia level the fish would be exposed to would be 17.7 ppm.
Now, a few points. 1) I completely made those numbers up, probably the most critical number up there is that the ammonia can convert 0.1 ppm of ammonia on the first day. That is probably way off.
But 2) the point is that a tank can be cycled while doing large water changes.
3) Here's the biggest point: the bacteria are only going to consume as much as they can. Any extra ammonia left over will just be sitting in the water -- and that extra ammonia will just be harming the fish. You can keep the cycling process going while keeping the level of ammonia at a safe enough level. If you will aim to keep the ammonia level below 1.0 ppm, it may take larger or more frequent changes, but the bacteria will be constantly growing and it will eventually cycle so long as there is a food source, and I don't think you can stop your fish from excreting waste.
Eventually the bacteria colony will grow to the point at which the bacteria are converting exactly as much ammonia per day as the fish are excreting. Now, if you add a fish, like you said, the fish will produce additional ammonia. The colony will have to catch up. This may be quick like in the case of adding 3 fish to a tank full of 30, which may only take a few hours and the fishkeeper probably wouldn't even notice it. Or it may cause a few-day mini cycle like in the case of adding 3 fish to a tank with only 3 others. But, there will always be a little lag -- whether or not you did large water changes in the past or not. Basically, the entire point here is that the bacteria don't know or don't care about the past, they only care about the present. (Big science word of the day alert here: a process that is independent of the past and only depends upon the present is also known as 'Markovian' use it to impress your friends.)
Lastly, with the prevalence of HOB filters, especially the ones with the Bio-wheels, you know exactly where the bacteria are. They are in the bio-wheel. So long as the bio-wheel doesn't get ruined, get exposed to unchlorinated water, get dried out, get lost, the water in the tank practically doesn't matter.
Skipping a water change shouldn't change the levels of ammonia either. Again, the production and elimination are in balance. Skipping a water change will end up with a tank with a higher concentration of nitrates, but not ammonia. Again, the bacteria do not care about the history of water changes, only the present. And that's basic cycling science.
I am going to guess that illumination = elimination, since the bacteria as far as I know are not photo-sensitive and will work just a well in the day as in the night.
Secondly, you can build up to a stable tank even with large water changes. And large water changes may really be needed in the beginning if the fish are going to suffer or even die.
Let me illustrate with an example. Let's begin with enough fish in a tank to increase the ammonia 4 ppm per day. Only enough bacteria to process 0.1 ppm per day to start. In general, at most room temperatures bacteria will double every day, so on day 2, the bacteria can process 0.2 ppm, and so on.
Day 1: 4.0 - 0.1 = 3.9 ppm ammonia in the tank At this point, those fish are in trouble, maybe dead. Let's say this tank owner gets on the forums and is told to do a large water change. 50% off is 1.95 ppm
Day 2: 1.95 + 4.0 - 0.2 = 5.75. 50% = 2.8
and so on
Day 3: 6.5 after change: 3.2
Day 4: 6.4 after change: 3.2
Day 5: 5.6 after: 2.8
Day 6: 3.6 after: 1.8
Day 7: 0 since the bacteria colony has grown large enough to consume all the ammonia. With the changes, the tank still got cycled, and the maximum ammonia level the fish were exposed to was 6.5.
By comparison, if you didn't do water changes, the maximum ammonia level the fish would be exposed to would be 17.7 ppm.
Now, a few points. 1) I completely made those numbers up, probably the most critical number up there is that the ammonia can convert 0.1 ppm of ammonia on the first day. That is probably way off.
But 2) the point is that a tank can be cycled while doing large water changes.
3) Here's the biggest point: the bacteria are only going to consume as much as they can. Any extra ammonia left over will just be sitting in the water -- and that extra ammonia will just be harming the fish. You can keep the cycling process going while keeping the level of ammonia at a safe enough level. If you will aim to keep the ammonia level below 1.0 ppm, it may take larger or more frequent changes, but the bacteria will be constantly growing and it will eventually cycle so long as there is a food source, and I don't think you can stop your fish from excreting waste.
Eventually the bacteria colony will grow to the point at which the bacteria are converting exactly as much ammonia per day as the fish are excreting. Now, if you add a fish, like you said, the fish will produce additional ammonia. The colony will have to catch up. This may be quick like in the case of adding 3 fish to a tank full of 30, which may only take a few hours and the fishkeeper probably wouldn't even notice it. Or it may cause a few-day mini cycle like in the case of adding 3 fish to a tank with only 3 others. But, there will always be a little lag -- whether or not you did large water changes in the past or not. Basically, the entire point here is that the bacteria don't know or don't care about the past, they only care about the present. (Big science word of the day alert here: a process that is independent of the past and only depends upon the present is also known as 'Markovian' use it to impress your friends.)
Lastly, with the prevalence of HOB filters, especially the ones with the Bio-wheels, you know exactly where the bacteria are. They are in the bio-wheel. So long as the bio-wheel doesn't get ruined, get exposed to unchlorinated water, get dried out, get lost, the water in the tank practically doesn't matter.
Skipping a water change shouldn't change the levels of ammonia either. Again, the production and elimination are in balance. Skipping a water change will end up with a tank with a higher concentration of nitrates, but not ammonia. Again, the bacteria do not care about the history of water changes, only the present. And that's basic cycling science.
Bloo
~ I learn something new ~ ~~~~ every day ~~~~
Phew thanks guys (especially Bignose & Tolak - I've even learnt a thing or two) For a moment there I thought I was all on my own 
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