Tank Cycling Query

I, also, was given bad advise from a LFS chain store when setting up my first (30L) tank last year. I bought Mollies after the tank had 'settled' for a week. They died within 9 days. I went back, he apologised, sold me 6 guppys and in they went. They died after 14 days.

I would simply say you didn't understand the benefits of whatever bacteria was in the cannister before you 'cleaned it out with tap water'.

Not the end of the world i suppose, either do water changes to keep the Ammonia below 0.25, or do what i did.... i cut my loses, logged onto this website, then carried a full 'fish-less' cycle, my tank is now sitting pretty in the corner.

Hope this helps from a fellow new hobbyist,
Terry.
 
Right - update......did a 1/3 rd water change last night, and went out this morning for an ammonia test kit. Results - Ammonia zero, nitrite zero. It's been set up for 15 days. As I said before though, if there was still bacteria in the pipes of the canister filter, would that be enough to keep the tank up and running when I set it up? Maybe the fish were a bad bunch from a poor shipment?
Unlikely, but at least the double zeros are good results. I suggest that you test daily for the next few weeks (if ammonia and nitrite always read at 0 ppm, no need to do any more water changes than usual maintenance) and if in 2-4 weeks there has still been no sign of either, you can probably start adding 2-3 small fish per week. If you add some more(?) live plants, you can probably add 3-6 small fish without problems. Easy plants incluse Vallis and some Hygrophilla species.

Surely if it was ammonia poisoning, then even after a 1/3 rd water change there would still be some signs if the levels were high to start with? I'm a little confused. Both tests are showing absolute zero. thanks in advance, any info positive or negative is welcomed and appreciated.
I wouldn't be so sure, it has been a few days now, right? The ammonia could have dropped by now and you may already have enough nitrite->nitrate bacteria to keep up with the small bioload..

Just to add, I went to a different fish shop this morning, and I was advised NEVER to do a fishless cycle. It takes too long and isn't anywhere near as good. They don't stock Ammonia. That's what I was told.
..just read the beginners resource and make up your mind about it for yourself. As for my views.. the second I read that, I wanted to do very painful things to that person you spoke to because it seems that they were talking about something they don't have the faintest clue about. The word cluebat comes to mind here, for some reason :rolleyes:
 
I'm getting what you're saying regarding the small bioload and the tank being able to now cope as both readings are zero - but it still confuses me as to why there has been no signs of nitrite all along. I didn't have the ammonia test kit until today, but it has been tested for nitrite all along, and I know after ammonia comes nitrite....SO, if there has been no nitrite all along, how can they have died through ammonia poisoning?????
 
I, also, was given bad advise from a LFS chain store when setting up my first (30L) tank last year. I bought Mollies after the tank had 'settled' for a week. They died within 9 days. I went back, he apologised, sold me 6 guppys and in they went. They died after 14 days.

I would simply say you didn't understand the benefits of whatever bacteria was in the cannister before you 'cleaned it out with tap water'.

Not the end of the world i suppose, either do water changes to keep the Ammonia below 0.25, or do what i did.... i cut my loses, logged onto this website, then carried a full 'fish-less' cycle, my tank is now sitting pretty in the corner.

Hope this helps from a fellow new hobbyist,
Terry.

I was aware of beneficial bacteria that they hold, but wanted to make a fresh start. If I'd have thought about it then I would have also cleaned the canister pipes too, it just slipped my mind. I was in no rush to add my choice fish, so therefore intended to just cycle myself. I was wondering what was kept in the tank before, and maybe he has no fish left through disease.....May sound silly now, but I thought that maybe not all bacteria is good, so I'd start my own tank from clean. Could there be bad bacteria left in from disease???
 
At least from what I have observed, the nitrite->nitrate bacteria seen to grow (on average) at a faster rate than ammonia->nitrite. So they could have multiplied at a rate fast enough to always keep nitrite undetectable, while the other bacteria could not multiply fast enough to deal with all ammonia immediately and it took them a few days to catch up.

This is just what I think could have happened in your case..
 
At least from what I have observed, the nitrite->nitrate bacteria seen to grow (on average) at a faster rate than ammonia->nitrite. So they could have multiplied at a rate fast enough to always keep nitrite undetectable, while the other bacteria could not multiply fast enough to deal with all ammonia immediately and it took them a few days to catch up.

This is just what I think could have happened in your case..

This theory would explain no traces.....I will keep testing for the next 2 weeks, and assuming no readings show, then I take it as cycled right?? Thanks for your help.
 
Then you can only take it as cycled for.. the number of fish you have right now. This is the biggest downside to fish-in cycling: you don't grow enough bacteria for full stocking, only for the fish which are currently in it, which is why it is important to stock *very* slowly and keep testing for at least as long as you're stocking. Once you are fully stocked or temporarily not stocking, you can normally cut down on the tests a bit.. eventually, in a few months, you will probably be testing only once per week, and later, only when there are problems with the tank.
 
Okay, I understand that part yes. What IF the small fish I have were removed and replaced with ammonia built up slowly? Would that grow the required bacteria to be able to add more fish at once, or is the science behind it too complex to know how much to add to the tank once the fish have been removed? Or is it simply just a bad idea?
 
You mean go from a fish-in cycled tank for few fish into a full on fish-less cycle? Well, in theory it should work without a problem and the cycle should only take about two weeks or so, assuming there is a decent number of bacteria in the filter. If the filter currently doesn't have any bacteria in it (pre-cycle state), then it would take the standard however many weeks that it would anyway (usually 4-6).
 
You mean go from a fish-in cycled tank for few fish into a full on fish-less cycle? Well, in theory it should work without a problem and the cycle should only take about two weeks or so, assuming there is a decent number of bacteria in the filter. If the filter currently doesn't have any bacteria in it (pre-cycle state), then it would take the standard however many weeks that it would anyway (usually 4-6).

Yes that's exactly what I mean :). Take the fish out in a couple of weeks if readings are still zero, then feed the tank daily with ammonia, gradually increasing the amount and therefore building up the good bacteria over a few weeks, taking readings daily and adjusting accordingly. Thanks again for your help.
 
What would you do with the fish?

And if you do take them out, start feeding ammonia on the same day! Otherwise, the bacteria will start to starve..
 
What would you do with the fish?

And if you do take them out, start feeding ammonia on the same day! Otherwise, the bacteria will start to starve..


The fish would be moved. I have another small tank that I can set up. I'll buy another double sponge filter and swap one of the sponges for one of the new sponges and transfer them over with the existing water and a handful of substrate. The double sponge is only an extra in the 180 litre, it's the canister filter I'm bothered about maturing, the sponge filter can catch up again.

Yes I understand to start adding ammonia upon removal of the fish, keep the good bacteria fed with the bad stuff :), then gradually up the dose. These 5 little fish can't be putting that much waste into 180 litres of water.....what kind of dosage of ammonia would you recommend for the first dose to match the output of waste from the fish?

Thank you.
 
Probably so little ammonia that it would be undetectable in a water volume that size. If you want to increase gradually (which is not necessary with a fish-less cycle), try 1 ppm, the 2 ppm, then 3 ppm and stay on 3 ppm till you get the double zeros at 12 hour mark. Just dose and wait till it drops to 0 ppm, dose and wait.. etc. The bacteria normally take about 1.5 days to double in number in an ideal environment, so within about two weeks, the tank should be able to handle a full stock.. but remember that in practice, it may be very different from theory.

Do watch the smaller tank water readings, there's more chance of something going wrong in a small volume.

I really hope this works well for you, please do keep me posted on the progress :)
 
Probably so little ammonia that it would be undetectable in a water volume that size. If you want to increase gradually (which is not necessary with a fish-less cycle), try 1 ppm, the 2 ppm, then 3 ppm and stay on 3 ppm till you get the double zeros at 12 hour mark. Just dose and wait till it drops to 0 ppm, dose and wait.. etc. The bacteria normally take about 1.5 days to double in number in an ideal environment, so within about two weeks, the tank should be able to handle a full stock.. but remember that in practice, it may be very different from theory.

Do watch the smaller tank water readings, there's more chance of something going wrong in a small volume.

I really hope this works well for you, please do keep me posted on the progress :)


So 1ppm of ammonia wouldn't kill the existing tank occupants? This would save moving them and make it a lot easier for me. In practice things things do sometimes turn out differently....we shall see. Will do :) thanks for your help
 
Probably so little ammonia that it would be undetectable in a water volume that size. If you want to increase gradually (which is not necessary with a fish-less cycle), try 1 ppm, the 2 ppm, then 3 ppm and stay on 3 ppm till you get the double zeros at 12 hour mark. Just dose and wait till it drops to 0 ppm, dose and wait.. etc. The bacteria normally take about 1.5 days to double in number in an ideal environment, so within about two weeks, the tank should be able to handle a full stock.. but remember that in practice, it may be very different from theory.

Do watch the smaller tank water readings, there's more chance of something going wrong in a small volume.

I really hope this works well for you, please do keep me posted on the progress :)


So 1ppm of ammonia wouldn't kill the existing tank occupants? This would save moving them and make it a lot easier for me. In practice things things do sometimes turn out differently....we shall see. Will do :) thanks for your help
Erm, over 0.25 ppm is harmful to fish >.< 1 ppm would do some serious damage! Seriously, if you want to grow the bacteria with ammonia (fish-less style) then it has to be done without fish. If you want to grow bacteria with fish in the tank, then just add the fish (slowly) and keep an eye on the parameters. Adding loads of plants would make the latter much easier.
 

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