Tank and stock question

[Barneykirk3]

Hi

Coming back to the hobby after 30 years, so lots have changed I am sure. Firstly I am looking at either a fluval or juwel tank between 60 and 100cm. I understand bigger is better so will probably go that way. One tank I have seen though is a Lido tank which are small but tall. Do they make a good tank?

From a stock point of view I can only say according to my water supplier that I have moderately soft water. We have identified some fish we would like, and some of those we have disregarded due to needing hard water. Main problem I am having is finding out firstly how many fish I can put in the tank, according to fluval it is 1cm of fish per 3 litres of water, does that sound reasonable. Secondly can anyone recommend tank mates for cardinal neons. I have tried the serious fish website but it uses different names for the fish and having trouble locating the correct one.

Sure I will have more questions but any help now would be much appreciated.

Dave

 

[StandbySetting]

Hello - I have a Lido 200 - it's a great tank as it is high volume and has a relatively small footprint. As far as stocking goes the rules of thumb don't always work as a 15cm fish doesn't produce the same amount of waste as 5x 3cm fish.

generally good tank mates for neon or cardinal tetras are those that aren't large enough to eat them and fish without long trailing fins as they will sometimes nip fins.
Obviously your water chemistry will dictate what you can keep - go to your local fish store, see what takes your fancy - do your research on them and go from there.

This is my lido 200- my stocking at the moment is;
6 juvenile angelfish (until a pair forms and 4 will be returned)
2 apistogramma cacatuoides
2 keyhole cichlids
12 red eye tetras
10 dwarf neon rainbows
6 bronze albino corys
6 Corydoras julii
1 bristlenose pleco

I'd say I'm pretty much fully stocked, I may add a few more tetras however, if you worked to the 1cm of fish to 1cm of water id be over stocked - but I have a good balance of bottom, mid and top dwelling fish and my water chemistry is excellent, I have no issues with aggression either so I know that I'm not over stocked.

 

[Byron]

There is much more to stocking than many realize. As you are still deciding about the tank, it is a good time to consider possible options for fish you'd prefer as some will be better in longer rather than higher tanks. The individual fish species' level of activity and behaviours is a prime guide to the type of tank that will be best for them. If for example you were interested in any of the danios or barbs, which are all relatively active swimmers, a long tank would be much better than a tall tank lacking the surface area. Fish don't tend to swim vertically, but horizontally, so length over height is crucial here. By contrast, fish like most of the pencilfish are fine in taller tanks because they rarely swim horizontally at all, preferring to cruise around, picking at surfaces for any food.

Do you have numbers for your water parameters? "Moderately soft" can be very different to different people; I have seen water authorities refer to "moderately hard" water that was actually very soft when the GH and KH were known.

SF is the best site for data on fish species. Common names vary, sometimes from country to county, so knowing the scientific name of the species is the best way to ascertain data. By "cardinal neon" (a name never seen in NA but one I have seen in European articles) I will assume you mean Parachierodon axelrodi, commonly called the cardinal tetra in NA.

Byron.

 

[Barneykirk3]

What numbers do I need for the water parameters? Only thing I can see with a PH value is Hydrogen ion, is that the one. There are 3 pages of figures so knowing which one's I need would be great. Also seen water hardness as mg/l CaCO3 with a figure of 74.90 if that makes sense.

 

[Byron]

What numbers do I need for the water parameters? Only thing I can see with a PH value is Hydrogen ion, is that the one. There are 3 pages of figures so knowing which one's I need would be great. Also seen water hardness as mg/l CaCO3 with a figure of 74.90 if that makes sense.

Yes, that is much more likely. The unit mg/l (milligrams per liter) is the same as one we use frequently in the hobby, ppm (parts per million), so when you see mg/l it is ppm. The other unit we often use is dGH (degrees general or german hardness), and you can easily convert ppm to dGH with 17.9, multiplying dGH by 17.9 to get ppm, or divide ppm by 17.9 to get dGH. I prefer dGH only because the numbers are smaller and easier to remember.

So your GH of 14 mg/l (ppm) equates to just less than 1 dGH. This is very soft water, which helps to explain the pH (and yes, pH is the measure of positive and negative hydrogen ions, put very simply) being close to slightly acidic at 6.8 to 7 [pH 7.0 is neutral, lower numbers become more acidic as they lower, while higher numbers become less acidic and more basic as they rise].

However, it is always best to really pin these parameters down, so if you can post the link to the water authority website (I assume that is the "3 pages" thing) I may be able to confirm things. These paramters are very important; some fish species have very specific requirements to ensure their physiology functions easily and correctly, helping to prevent disease, so it is always good to know what you have at hand (out of the tap) and then aim to acquire fish suited. Believe me, it makes life much easier; water changes are a breeze when we can use the water straight from the tap (with a conditioner of course, that is something else).

Byron.

 

[Barneykirk3]

Hi

Have attached report to this post. Let me know if you cant see it .

 

[Byron]

Hi

Have attached report to this post. Let me know if you cant see it .

No, that won't open. Are there any numbers for general or total hardness?

Edit: Actually, going back over this thread, I think we have answered the question. You have very soft water, and as far as pH goes, this will tend to lower (becoming more acidic) as the biological system establishes. So you should be looking at soft water fish.

Assuming Paracheirodon axelrodi is the cardinal neon, this is ideally suited to your water. Tank sizes previously mentioned were 60 cm and 100 cm, which I assume is the length of the tank? The larger will be much better. What are the other dimensions, or the volume? These will tell us about numbers of fish.

In that regard, as I said previously there are many factors to consider when it comes to stocking. Fish mass to water volume is what many assume to be it, but it is only the beginning, and in some ways not the most important. You might enjoy reading this article that I posted a while back, that goes into many of the factors we have to consider when setting up a community aquarium. I can address any if asked.

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co....W&email_hash=9357f00ddcdf3a297acf594914ed58b5

I'll take a very simple example. In your 100 cm tank, which I will take to be 40 gallons (150 liters) just for the sake of the illustration. A group of four cardinal tetra will have a greater impact on the biology than will a group of 9-12. This may seem odd, but the fact is that in the small group, the fish are continually going to be on the lookout for trouble, stressed in other words, because they have evolved to function best in larger groups. Then, if you add a somewhat aggressive species, say a barb, in this tank, the cardinals will be further stressed because they are not expecting to be surrounded by such active and somewhat feisty fish. So this affects the biology more than would a group of say hatchetfish.

Byron.

P.S. I did open that link, and I don;'t see anything that would contradict what we have determined re the soft water.

 

[Barneykirk3]

No nothing about hardness. This is link to website. If you need postcode it is dg1 3rn http/www.scottishwater.co.uk/you-and-your-home/water-quality/waterqualitysearch
Or does 4.20 german degrees help?

 

[Barneykirk3]

Or do these figures help
Calcium mgCa/l 24.44
Magnesium mgMg/l 3.39
Clark degrees 5.25
French degrees 7.49

 

[Byron]

Or do these figures help
Calcium mgCa/l 24.44
Magnesium mgMg/l 3.39
Clark degrees 5.25
French degrees 7.49

We're on the right track with very soft water, even up to the 4 dGH in your previous post.

 

[Barneykirk3]

Thanks Byron

Tank size will be between 61 and 121cm probably 100cm and between 100 and 200 litres. Fish wise i will read the link tomorrow but am in no rush fish wise as want to get tank up and running before adding any fish. One question i have is i read conflicting reports on angelfish and cardinal neon getting on or not getting on, which is correct. As read a similar things about neons and siamese fighting fish.

 

[Byron]

Thanks Byron

Tank size will be between 61 and 121cm probably 100cm and between 100 and 200 litres. Fish wise i will read the link tomorrow but am in no rush fish wise as want to get tank up and running before adding any fish. One question i have is i read conflicting reports on angelfish and cardinal neon getting on or not getting on, which is correct. As read a similar things about neons and siamese fighting fish.

Angelfish and linear tetras like cardinals is not a good combination. Now, some will allegedly say they get along, and they may; but it is not "normal" so I wouldn't risk it.

Turning to angelfish, this tank will not be large enough anyway. This is another shoaling fish, and five is the minimum number. This requires at least a 4-foot (120 cm) tank with a minimum width (front to back) of 30 cm and a height of at least 50 cm. But then you have other issues to consider. A pair will likely form, and that can mean removing the others when they spawn. Tankmates have to be carefully selected from both aspects, the angelfish and the tankmate species--many will readily nip the fins of the sedate angelfish.

Betta (Siamese Fighting Fish) are not community fish. A male deserves his own space, no question. Again it is a two-way street; I have seen Betta easily eat neon tetra, and I have seen even peaceful fish like neons nipping the Betta's fins. When fish like this are combined, it is frankly cruel, because if the fish are healthy and normal, we cannot change their inherited characteristics, but should rather learn what they are and accept them. Sometimes when these "risks" seem to work it is because the fish themselves are so stressed they are no longer being "normal," and that is not the way to go.

Byron.

 

[Barneykirk3]

Thanks Byron

That concurs with most information I have found out. Hope to sort out a tank tomorrow which will then give me a starting point for what fist to stock with the Neons and how many. Sure I will have more questions for you.

 

[Barneykirk3]

Ok, so been out today and purchased a Juwel Rio 125 litre tank which measures 81cm x 36cm x 50cm.Now talking to the people in the shop they favour the fish in cycling method. I understand from reading this and other forums that it isn't everyones choice. Am I right in thinking if I went the non fish route I would need to get some ammonia? If I went the fish route I understand certain fish are better than other to do it with, am I right? Does it matter in either way that I am not using live plants?
From a stock point of view I asked what got on with tetras. they said guppies, mollies, swordtails, platys, pentalum? barbs, corys and dwarf gouramis. Are they right in what they are saying? I wont have all the types as appreciate I am limited due to size of tank.

Thanks.

 

[Essjay]

Fish shops, almost without exception, advise fish-in cycling. I don't know if that's because they want to sell you more fish when the ones you cycle with die, they don't understand fishless cycling or they think their customers won't be able to understand fishless cycling. Or maybe they think if they suggest fishless cycling you'll just go down the road to the other shop and get fish from there instead.
Fishless cycling is easier for the fishkeeper and much kinder for the fish. Ignore the shop. Since you won't have live plants to help remove ammonia I would not consider doing anything else. The method on here is the best one to follow http://www.fishforums.net/threads/cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first.421488/

Yes, you will need ammonia. I would look on Ebay or Amazon as being easier than trying to find a real shop that stocks it. I have Jeyes Kleen Off Household Ammonia which I got from my local diy shop, and that fine to use as it doesn't contain any detergent or perfume. There are other brands available, just check they contain only ammonia/ammonium hydroxide and water.



With your soft water, I would keep away from livebearers - the guppies, platies, mollies and swordtails mentioned by the shop - as these all need hard water. This another reason to ignore the shop.
But pentazona barbs, cories and gouramis are suitable for you water, as are just about all fish from south America such as tetras and dwarf cichlids. A lot of these will get too big for your tank, so look at the smaller tetras, cories etc. There are also asian fish that would work, fish like harlequin rasboras.
The best place to read up on fish - their size, water requirements, behaviour etc - is the website Seriously Fish. Check the minimum tank size the site gives as this will flag up the species that get too big. You have a few weeks to draw up a wish list while your new tank is cycling, and we can help fine tune the list.



I used to have a Rio 125, it's a nice starter tank.