Sump Or No Sump If Starting With New Tank?

[Bertiedootes]

Hi everyone....first post and happy to be here.
 
I'm looking to buy a new 60 x 24 x 24 or possibly 72 x 24 x 24 (inches) tank for my six angels, but i also have 3 year + mature 14 x rasbora, bristlenose, 6 x cardinals and a couple of cherry barbs that will go in from my current 240 litre tank.
 
This new tank will be a long term home for my angels and I want to give aquascaping a go and create a well planted environment. 
 
I understand that a sump is arguably not a perfect idea for co2 - but if you could begin a project like this would you go baffled sump (up to 50x18x17 inches if I go 72) or cannister? As for co2 - I might stick with liquid anyway. Would this eliminate the possible negative affect of a sump?
 
Thing is, I see so many more filtration options, larger mech and bio load capacity, hidden heaters, algae/plant growth space, refugium (not that I fully understand this option and benefits).
 
So, really looking for some advice and things to think about. Sump or cannister for a new angel home with (what I eventually hope will be) a well planted tank?
 
Thanks for reading.
 
Bertie

 

[techen]

Well, The two tank sizes you've listed are quite suited for a good amount of angels which is all good.
 
Now, The idea of a sump has been talked about many times on this forum. My view on it is there just a waste of time and money, I'd rather roll two canister filters at each end of the tank and keep it that way. Two large filters will be able to handle a bio load of what a 600L could stock anyway so no issues. As for CO2, You'll need some insane lighting above the tank itself to even have the benefits of CO2, Do you know what kind of lighting you'll have? You'll want around 2WPG and in such a big tank it's not going to be cheap
 
Liquid CO2 will not be helpful on a tank that size, You'll have to use gas just due to the volume of water. 

 

[Chad]

As a reef keeper I'm a huge fan of sumps. On a reef/marine tank they are a must and I recommend them to anyone. Not only do they add volume to the system but serve as a place to hide equipment like heaters, skimmers, reactors, etc. They also provide a location for a refugium which has many benefits.
 
However, as you suggest, a sump and Co2 are sort of at odds with each other. The surface aggitation produced by even a slow moving sump is going to reduce the levels of C02. That said, it's possible to set it up in such a way as to reduce the impact greatly. Setting the water level high so there's no spill over into the overflow, just an at water level flow and using a small return pump (low GPH) just enough to return some water in a slow circulation should all keep the C02 in the water.
 
In a FW tank you could use the sump to store the heater and grow some fast growing plants that would uptake the nutrients and act as a secondary biological filter in the tank. Reef keepers do this all the time by growing macro algae in the sump to uptake phosphates which are the enemy of the reef (they hinder the skeletal growth of stony corals). 
 
And as mentioned the addition of a sump increases your volume. For example my tanks is 210 gallons I have a 40 gallon sump system so my total volume is 250 gallons. When we're dealing with PPM this can make quite a difference in how forgiving a tank is.

 

[Bertiedootes]

Thanks for the reply, Duck. As for lighting, it will be LEDs. God knows yet how much it will cost for adequate lighting, but that I suppose is another topic!
 
say 1 x FX6 will be £220 or more, 2 x 406's will be £280 (rough prices and fluval as an example)
 
That is over and above the cost of adding a sump to the tank - other than bio-balls (or similar) and a pump (£100?) I don't yet understand why a sump would be more expensive or more bother? Please don't take offence, I am grateful for your opinions - just need to fully understand cost/benefits/maintenance differences. Especially if I have a blank canvass.
 
Cheers,
 
Bertie

As a reef keeper I'm a huge fan of sumps. On a reef/marine tank they are a must and I recommend them to anyone. Not only do they add volume to the system but serve as a place to hide equipment like heaters, skimmers, reactors, etc. They also provide a location for a refugium which has many benefits.
 
However, as you suggest, a sump and Co2 are sort of at odds with each other. The surface aggitation produced by even a slow moving sump is going to reduce the levels of C02. That said, it's possible to set it up in such a way as to reduce the impact greatly. Setting the water level high so there's no spill over into the overflow, just an at water level flow and using a small return pump (low GPH) just enough to return some water in a slow circulation should all keep the C02 in the water.
 
In a FW tank you could use the sump to store the heater and grow some fast growing plants that would uptake the nutrients and act as a secondary biological filter in the tank. Reef keepers do this all the time by growing macro algae in the sump to uptake phosphates which are the enemy of the reef (they hinder the skeletal growth of stony corals). 
 
And as mentioned the addition of a sump increases your volume. For example my tanks is 210 gallons I have a 40 gallon sump system so my total volume is 250 gallons. When we're dealing with PPM this can make quite a difference in how forgiving a tank is.

Thanks tcamos. If surface agitation has a negative effect on co2, why would a cannister filter be more beneficial? I don't fully understand the mechanics of co2 and how sumps can reduce impact.

 

[techen]

Because you can dip the filter lower so it does not make too much surface agitation, Therefore increasing the CO2 amount. Plants will provide the oxygen during the day, But with a sump, Water going down and all that jazz is just not helpful for CO2.
 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

These links might help:
 
http/www.plantedtank.net/forums/eq...ry-filter.html
http/www.plantedtank.net/forums/eq...e-filters.html
http/www.plantedtank.net/forums/eq...-co2-myth.html
http/www.plantedtank.net/forums/ge...use-sumps.html

 

[Bertiedootes]

Thanks guys - got a lot of reading to do.
 
If you had a 600 + litre tank - would you aquascape/plant/co2 it? What would people use such a size tank generally for, or is that a stupid question? Planted and community, or something like cichlid/sand/rocks? 
 
Sump or not, I have a unexpected opportunity in getting a rather large 2nd hand 800 litre no sump tank. Cost even less that the 600 litre new one. 
 
Probably start a new thread on this subject,....what would you do with such a big tank?

 

[Chad]

Because you can dip the filter lower so it does not make too much surface agitation, Therefore increasing the CO2 amount. Plants will provide the oxygen during the day, But with a sump, Water going down and all that jazz is just not helpful for CO2.
 

Yup. Nice graphic.
 

Thanks guys - got a lot of reading to do.
 
If you had a 600 + litre tank - would you aquascape/plant/co2 it? What would people use such a size tank generally for, or is that a stupid question? Planted and community, or something like cichlid/sand/rocks? 
 
Sump or not, I have a unexpected opportunity in getting a rather large 2nd hand 800 litre no sump tank. Cost even less that the 600 litre new one. 
 
Probably start a new thread on this subject,....what would you do with such a big tank?

That's not all that big.
 
For me I like to have a big tank but not have big fish. Rather than large fish I enjoy schools. Having 70 cardinal tetras...awesome!

 

[Bertiedootes]

800 litres is big for me tcamos! 

  especially when the 240 is a reasonable size in the room already. It will overshadow EVERYTHING (which I am not saying is a bad thing). Water changes shouldn't be a problem as I have ideas about that. But the idea of 800 litres and all that room and all that opportunity for landscaping and rocks and plants. Eventually my angels will mature, and as you say...I was thinking about a big school of cardinals.
 
If I get it then no sump question - so will end the thread. Will sleep on it. 
 
Thanks
 
Bertie

 

[Chad]

I was only half joking. My tank is almost 950 liters so I get size. But I was serious about what fish to put into it. Something that large with a beautiful auqascape and a school of fish would be breathtaking to visitors.

 

[Bertiedootes]

Thinking the same thing. I recently got my angels and I am transfixed at how different they behave to my other fish. I love my cardinals (nice and mature, all the same nice big size, but one big daddy of cardinal) but only have 6 now in the 240. Have 14 mature rasboras, look striking but no real personality for me. The idea of 40/50 or more cardinals, mature angels to give them something to school for, big bunch of corys for the bottom, others I haven't yet though about - that would be great I would imagine.