Sudden Death Syndrome

[andyt_uk]

hey guys been a hell of a long time since i came calling for help... but i am here cap in hand seeking advice.

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Tank size: 190litre
pH: 6.8
ammonia: ?
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 50
kH: 16
gH: ?
tank temp: 32 - seems high but has always been this high with no trouble

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior):
none just sudden death - some though have been swimming a lot near the surface - alhough they still venture down to the bottom, dead krib did have a small red 'bruise' on belly, 1 barb had been fin nipped, angels seem untouched and death appeared to come very quickly - went from appearing perfectly normal to sitting on bottom then dead within hours...

Volume and Frequency of water changes: little & often

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank: protozin since this outbreak, melafix also

Tank inhabitants:
2 angels (now dead), 1 molly, 3 platty, 5 zebra danio, 2 clown loach, 3 kribs (1 now dead, 2 gone missing), 4 black ruby barb (2 dead)

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration):3 platty, 5 zebra danio, 2 clown loach, 3 kribs (1 now dead, 2 gone missing), 4 black ruby barb (2 dead), several new plants

Exposure to chemicals: stress coat on addition of new fish, medication as mentioned above

water parameters have been stable as above for months if not years, addition of new fish have not changed the water conditions

 

[WILDER]

Was the bruising beneath the skin, laying on the bottom is a sign of a bacterial infection.
Have the fish darkened in colour.
Fish can labour breath with a bacterial infection, but just want to check there no signs of flicking and rubbing against ojects.
Need that ammonia reading, take a sample of your tank water to the lfs and tell them to write the readings down for you.

 

[andyt_uk]

thanks for reply, will try get ammonia reading, i have a test kit last time i took it reading was zero
colour is normal in all the dead fish - in fact more normal than usual - in my experience dead fish lose colour very quickly, these seem in perfect condition
the red marking on the krib appeared like it was just below surface, difficult to say really - definately wasnt a growth on the fish.
the barbs in particular do seem to be breathing fast although havent kept them before so not sure if this is normal, their gills may look slightly red, but again not too sure now if this is normal

 

[WILDER]

The krib had septicemia.
Red gills can be poor water quality need to look at that ammonia reading.
Gill flukes red gills, laboured breathing, flicking and rubbing.


Just read this look under gill flukes, as they can cause septicemia bacterial infections on top.

http/www.fish-disease.net/diseases.htm

http/article.dphnet.com/cat-02/flukes1.shtml

Do the fish rub there gills on objects.

 

[andyt_uk]

appreciate your input
i will treat for flukes, but i have to be honest and say i dont think the angels had flukes...
i am gutted about losing them, had them for ages

 

[WILDER]

Need to look at your ammonia reading first if its 0 then I would say its gill flukes.
New fish and plants can fetch parasites into the tank, fish can carry a few flukes till they get stressed and infested with them, once they start gasping bad news the parasite done there worst.


R.I.P.

 

[WILDER]

Here a link to flukes and there are some other links too.
http/www.goldfishparadise.com/forum/phpB...p=108220#108220

Is it possible to load some pics up of the fish?

 

[andyt_uk]

no flicking or rubbing going on

ammonia zero

any suggested treatment?
if krib had septicemia, should i worry about the missing other kribs?
all came from same source at same time
i have bred kribs before and they are not in any of the usu

 

[Katchan]

Have you checked your nitrite reading?
Nitrite poisoning can give a fish excellent colour even after death (as you have stated happens)

Andrew

 

[WILDER]

For now then I would just treat with a bacterial med as something going off in your tank.

http/www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/hdgilld.htm

 

[andyt_uk]

Have you checked your nitrite reading?
Nitrite poisoning can give a fish excellent colour even after death (as you have stated happens)

Andrew

Nitrite still zero
nitrate however is higher, was a typo above, its more in region of 150 (not 50 as stated earlier) however i wouldnt have expected nitrate to have such an impact in such a short time
unless i have my facts wrong 150 isnt massively high and with more new plants would expect it to drop soon anyway...

got home from work tonight, another victim, a perfect looking platty, no sign of illness, sorry no pics but skin was smooth, nice slime coating othing unusual, gills look ok, no redness, no spots, no torn fins, no damage of any kind.
done another small water change - added some methyl blue

whilst doing water change had a look for the missing pair of kribs, moved all ornaments about and no sign at all - not even a body hidden somewhere.... its a mystery

i am concerned though about my gravel, it is rather deep, and moving stuff about really stirred up a lot of crap i think i might have to remove a lot of gravel so i can clean it properly - possibly being naive but i dont think that is part of the problem - obviously not ideal though...

 

[WILDER]

Thats why your nitrates are high it wants a good gravel vac if the substrate is deep.
And high nitrates are harmful to fish but not as much as ammonia and nitrate, anything above 50, and over 100 is getting bad.

 

[andyt_uk]

Thats why your nitrates are high it wants a good gravel vac if the substrate is deep.
And high nitrates are harmful to fish but not as much as ammonia and nitrate, anything above 50, and over 100 is getting bad.

thanks for all your help Wilder, meds added last night, remaining fish seem to be swimming happier today so fingers crossed - will wait till weekend as suggested for the meds before making more water changes, but will be removing some of the substrate to thin it out and vac'ing it as much as possible with 5% water changes daily till i am happy its clear - hopefully water & fish will improve and i can start to slowly restock again...

 

[Liam]

32 degrees Celsius is very high, the water will contain a lot less oxygen, so that alone would account for the fast breathing. I think that a temperature that high would cause a lot of stress over the long term for fish. Danios and barbs usually prefer much cooler water. Ten degrees less would be more suitable for them. Clown loaches and Angels are better at higher temps but 32 is still very high for them. Filters are less efficient at those temperatures too if oxygen levels are low. I would suggest that 25 degrees would be a much better temperature for the fish you have. I would lower it over a week or two. Even with really good water circulation and air stones the fish would be working harder to get enough oxygen at 32.

 

[andyt_uk]

32 degrees Celsius is very high, the water will contain a lot less oxygen, so that alone would account for the fast breathing. I think that a temperature that high would cause a lot of stress over the long term for fish. Danios and barbs usually prefer much cooler water. Ten degrees less would be more suitable for them. Clown loaches and Angels are better at higher temps but 32 is still very high for them. Filters are less efficient at those temperatures too if oxygen levels are low. I would suggest that 25 degrees would be a much better temperature for the fish you have. I would lower it over a week or two. Even with really good water circulation and air stones the fish would be working harder to get enough oxygen at 32.

thanks
although it has been at that temp for 3 yrs, i raised it to help get rid of some whitespot, and forgot to drop it, when i realised the stat on the heater didnt seem to be working everything seemed fine so left it..
whilst what you state is probably true, it certainly isnt what killed off both new and 3+ yr old fish
before i restock once everything is sorted i will replace my heater