Stocking Suggestions

[danilykins]

Hey Still somewhat new here. I have some questions for you guys.
I just got a 30gallon tank yesterday and used Activ Flora substrate and I am buying some plants to place in there this after noon. How long do you think it will take to cycle? I did readings today and Ph is 7.4 AM between 0-.25 NI:0 NA:5.

Im also thinking about what Im going to stock it with when it is done... So far I have 5 guppies still in my 10gallon tank and a Yellow Mystery snail.

I have looked at LOTS of compatibility charts for the guppies but still not sure. I was thinking of some Danios or some rasbora, but wanted to get some opinions about what you think would look nice in there.

 

[Curiosity101]

First off, a few questions...

Is the 10gal cycled?

Are you wanting to move any of the 10gal stock to the 30gal?

If you're wanting to cycle the 30gal for completely new fish then are you wanting to do a fish-in or fishless cycle? If fish-in (although I strongly recommend fishless), then plant it up today and when you're ready with your first fish (make sure to only buy a few cm worth of fish) transfer some of your filter media from the 10gal (30% ish would be good). And then test the tank daily once the fish are in and do water changes to keep ammonia and nitrites below 0.25ppm

If going fishless then store the plants somewhere in an airtight container either in water or if in a bag with all the air sucked out they only need to be damp. And then take 30% of the filter media from your 10gal and put it into the 30gal to seed in. Then so a fishless cycle as usual with ammonia and you should hopefully be ready for fish in a couple of weeks. Whilst fishless cycling keep the lights off to avoid algae outbreaks. Obviously if you have plants in you can't leave the lights off though.

Personally with larger tanks I prefer to get a couple of 'big' fish as a centerpiece and then stock around them with a couple of shoals of other fish. For example...
10 Danios/Rasbora/Tetra (only 1 shoal of 1 species though)
2 x Keyholes/Dwarf flag cichlids/Pearl gouramis or 1x Angel/Dwarf gourami
8 x Corydora/Kuhli loach
and then maybe something else of interest for the bottom of the tank like a pair of bolivian rams, or n. transvestitus (my curent fave fish), brislenose catfish etc.

Eitherways sticking to that sort of 'formula' means that you often end up with a 'balanced' looking tank where all the fish are happy with their tank mates and there is always something going on at some level of the tank. Personally not a fan of live bearers as they don't really fit the 'formula' I like... but I know alot of people that do like them

What problems have you see with guppies? Is it other fish nipping their fins that you've been reading about?

 

[danilykins]

Right now the plan is to move the guppies to the large tank when the tank is ready. I haven't had too many problems with the guppies. I have 5 male guppies. I have noticed that one of them seems to be getting picked on by another one, just chasing and circling, but Im not sure if this is play behavior or not. That was one reason I wanted the larger tank. The 10gallon has been up and running for about a year now.

If I am understanding correct, if I do a fishless cycle do it without plants??? I thought the plants would help because it helps with all the spikes and helps absorb the NA and AM? I really want to do fishless because I don't want to kill any fish. The substrate I bought (Activ Flora) says there was no cycling required... but yeah right, those things never work.. Like I said earlier my numbers are Ph is 7.4 AM between 0-.25 NI:0 NA:5. I have moved my 10gallon filter from my 10gal to my 30gallon to help "seed" the new tank, and I have one fern type plant in there right now. Other than that I don't have anything else to seed the new tank. Should I move some decor over? I have been adding bits of flakes and I added a algae wafer to help with the ammonia. The water is nice and clear and the tank looks great.. I just wonder how long it will take.

I was thinking about adding some rasbora to the mix when the tank is ready. I wanted to do some mollies but read that once they get bigger they tend to nip at guppies. Im trying to go all male as I do not want any babies to deal with.

 

[Curiosity101]

Right... first off I suggest you read the topics in my sig about cycling. That will clarify cycling for you so that you'll know why I'm saying what I'm about to say.

Plants are only useful in soaking up the ammonia if you're doing a fish-in cycle. In a fishless cycle no living creature is being harmed by the ammonia so there is no need to 'soak' it up.
However ammonia + light = algae. So to avoid algae in a fishless cycle you wait to plant it and keep it in the dark.

However... if you're wanting to move the guppies and snails over then remove all of the rotting food from the new tank and move the fish over now. The filter in the 10gal is where all the bacteria live that support and convert the waste that the 5 guppies and snail make. Move the filter and you can move the fish, because you're moving exactly the right amount of bacteria to support that amount of fish.
It is important to take away the rotting food though, otherwise you'll get a massive ammonia spike.

The easiest way to do it would be to just stuff all of the 10gal filter media into the 30gals filter though (alongside the 30gals brand new media). That way you save a plug socket, save some tank space, and the bacteria will transfer faster to the new filter. They don't NEED to transfer, cause so long as they're in the filter in the tank with the fish it'll be fine and they'll do their job. But eventually when you want to set up the 10 gal again you'll want the media back, and if it's stuffed into the new filter, rather than running alongside, then you'll be able to set-up the 10gal again sooner.

So at the moment your 10gal doesn't have a filter? And the guppies and snail will currently be being exposed to ammonia..? Another very good reason to move them across ASAP

Once all media and fish are moved across, give it a few hours and then test the ammonia + nitrite levels. Hopefully they should be the same/have gone down. And seeing as you're not performing a cycle then you can just pop the plants straight in. You hopefully shouldn't have any algae outbreaks as you shouldn't (in theory) see an ammonia spike once you've removed the rotting food.

 

[danilykins]

hmm... thats interesting about moving the fish over to the big tank. So if I have plants and filter media from the 10gal tank, the guppies and snail will be fine in the 30gal tank? Right now I have a bubble wand and some plants in the 10gal tank along with decor and the fish/snail. I really don't want to lose any guppies, thats why Im kind of afraid to move them over.

 

[Curiosity101]

Simple solution. Go and test the 10gal for ammonia right now. It'll be really high (or at least registering) depending on how long it was since you moved the filter.

The bacteria convert the ammonia to nitrite, then that nitrite to nitrates. You've put the guppy and snails bacteria into the 10 gal tank... So you need to move the guppies and snail aswell or they'll be poisoned. But you have to remove the rotting food from the 30gal tank, as the 10 gal filter media only currently has enough bacteria to support the fish and snail. Not fish + snail + rotting food.

 

[danilykins]

Ok, I tested the 10gal and it *might* be at .25 for ammonia. Ive got lots of plants in there, so that might be causing the Ammonia to stay down. While I was in there, I took some ornaments and a fake plant over to the new tank to help a bit.

 

[Curiosity101]

Right... I'm only going to say this one more time... the bacteria supporting the 5 guppys and snail is on the filter media. You move the filter and you remove the bacteria from their food source. You've already given them a new food source (the rotting food), which is producing more ammonia that the 5 guppies and snail, hence the increased level of ammonia in the main tank.

Remove the rotting food and move the guppies and snail across otherwise the ammonia in the 10gal will just keep rising.

Decor... gravel... water... etc is NOT going to do anything one way or another. You moved the filter, now either move the fish or put it back and just move 30% of it's media over into the new filter. If you put the 10gal filter back and just move a bit of the 10 gals filter media (and so are going to do a fishless cycle on the 30gal).
Then don't put the plants in, and leave the rotting food where it is.

Also... read the cycling links in my signature! Alot of this info I'm giving you is covered there in depth. And is probably written better than I can explain it anyways so will be easier to understand.

 

[danilykins]

Ok.. I thank you for all your help. I have read them already and just trying to understand. If I need anything else Ill ask

 

[Curiosity101]

Fair enough if you've already read them. I presumed you hadn't and were just asking questions cause you couldn't be bothered lol.

I'll try explaining it in a different way then.

The bacteria that we grow (2 types) need a few things to live. And they grow in the best place for them to recieve this. They obviously don't conciously choose where they live BECAUSE it's the best place. But a bacteria ends up there because when it's there it grows best (better than all the others), so eventually they spread from this 'prime' place.

The things the bacteria need are... a good food supply and a good oxygen supply aswell as somewhere preferably porus to attach to and grow on cause they tend to grow as a biofilm (a group of bacteria all together with a protective coating). Logically this will always be the filter media of the filter. It meets all the criteria needed. The reason they don't grow anywhere else isn't magic or un explainable. It makes sense. How would they survive anywhere else? 99.9% of bacteria are in the prime conditions using up all the ammonia and nitrites whilst being attached to the perfect surface. For a colony to move single/new bacteria need to break away and land somewhere where they can out compete the other colony... there just isn't anywhere in a tank better suited.

Also when we say a tank is cycled, this is a relative term. Your 10gal is cycled for the 5 guppies and 1 snail. Ie. the ammount of food you feed and waste they produce in any given second, minute, hour ect is processed instantly by the number of bacteria in the filter.
If your filter isn't cycled, again this is relative, all it means is that ammonia is being produced faster than the bacteria can convert it. This is why the level increases. Also it's not 'cycled' until the nitrite bacteria are able to convert that to nitrates as fast as the ammonia bacs convert the ammonia.

So right now you're seeing ammonia in the main tank because the rotting food is giving off ammonia faster than the 10 gal filters bacterial colony can convert it. Hence it builds up. But the bacteria will have started multiplying to make up the difference. As I've hopefully made clear, this isn't neccesary if you want to move the guppies and snail across. But you will have to remove the rotting food. Right now there will probably be enough bacteria for the original 5 guppies + snail, plus a little bit extra that started growing cause of the excess ammonia.
Therefore if you remove the rotting food and replace with fish and snail then you should see the ammonia come down within a few hours (cause there will be less ammonia being produced than the bacteria convert).

I guess the two main things you should take from the above are:
The nitrogen cycle is continuous and is a balance - If your tank is cycled then the number of bacteria will be exactly the number you need to convert the ammonia as fast as the fish produce it and therefore keep it at 0. There will also be enough nitrite bacs to convert that as fast as the first bacs conver the ammonia.

The bacteria will live in the place which gives them the best ability to survive. This will always be the filter media. Hence why I said it's better to move the filter media rather than running the filter alongside the other. The bacteria gain no real benefit in moving from the 10gal filter to the 30gal filter so colonisation will occur very very slowly. And it's likely that it'd only split in half (some would stay in the 10gals filter anyways).

 

[danilykins]

OK that makes sense. Yeah I have been in tank communities online for a while now, I understand the unspoken word of, don't ask until you read the material LOL. Its just I have one community/friends telling me not to move them over yet and then I have you saying it is fine to move them over lol..

Now how will the plants play in all this? Because I know that plants suck up ammonia and help in keeping the balance. Do I need to know anything special about that?

Thank you so much for breaking it down for me, I never meant to frustrate you in any way.

 

[Curiosity101]

The question you have to ask the people who are telling you not too is do that know what I know? Does their argument make logical biological sense? Or is it all 'he said she said' or 'When my grandad did...'.

Plants do use some ammonia, and if ammonia isn't available to them they will use nitrates. However the amount and type of plants alters the amount they take in. For example a tank full of slow growing mosses will barely be affected by the plants cause they only use ammonia + nitrates as they grow.
Fast growing plants are the ones that have a noticeable effect. I'm not sure which one (plants or bacteria) is better at using the ammonia (you'd have to ask in the planted section to find out for sure). But I'd imagine the bacteria use more of the ammonia than the plants, and that the plants mainly use nitrates to grow.

Having said all that there is such a thing as a 'walstead style' tank. Where there is no filter on the tank, just a powerhead or similar to push the water around. And it's heavily heavily stocked with plants and lightly stocked with fish. And the fish + plants can be balanced so that the plants use the waste as fast as the fish produce it. If you look up some of the tanks you'll see just how many plants it takes though for a small amount of fish. It's not really feasible for most people. Plus heavily heavily planted tanks require alot of maintenance.

As I said earlier, fishless or fish-in cycling results in free ammonia circulating in the water (in a cycled tank it's kept at a negligible amount... shows as 0 on test kit). Free ammonia + light = algae. So in fishless cycling we suggest not putting plants in because that way you can leave the light off and avoid algae outbreaks.
In fish in cycling it's the opposite, you don't care about algae outbreaks, all you want is keep the ammonia as low as possible until the bacteria catch up. Plants are useful here cause they take in some of the ammonia as they grow.

However... none of that is really applicable to your situation anyways. I've said it a few times... but the bacteria neccesary to keep ammonia at 0 when a tank contains your 5 guppies and 1 snail are on the 10gals filter media. Which is now in the 30gal... and so those bacteria are now feeding on the ammonia from the rotting food. But clearly the rotting food is creating ammonia faster than the fish and snail as the level in the 30gal is increasing.

Remove the food, and move the fish. The ammonia level will come down over the next few hours and settle at 0 again.

 

[danilykins]

Sounds like a good plan. I understand now.. thanks for the patients... now do I still have to worry about fish loss? since I am moving from a 10 to 30 the tank is rather, naked... what would you recommend to stock it with? The PH is good right now, i would not like to change it. I do want to get some plants ( I have a fern of some sort and some anubis but its not a super lot.) What type of fish "play well" with guppies? I'd like middle swimmers if possible. I would love to get some Mollies but I hear they don't do too well with guppies when the get bigger