Still Having Trouble With Fishless Cycle!

[bsud]

It has been right at 4 weeks now since i first started. Ive been checking ammonia and nitrites daily with no change what so ever. 4ppm ammonia and 0 nitrites. I tested nitrates today and they look to be about 40 or 80ppm hard to tell with those two colors. I am just puzzeled as to after all this time why ammonia hasnt dropped not even the slightest. Ive also done pwcs over the period and ammonia just will not drop! What should i do??

 

[Ninjouzata]

Have you kept a log of everything? If so, please post it as more information is always better. How much ammonia did you add to what size tank?
How much water have you changed? Have you read THIS? I ask because it should be 3ppm and not 4ppm. What is your pH?

 

[Ch4rlie]

Also will add, have you got a filter that agitating the surface of water to help oxygenate the water to help with cycling the tank.
 
And have you got a heater in the water, set at something like 28C / 82F?
 
Do read the Fishless Cycle link that Ninjouzata has posted, its a good, useful article.

 

[bsud]

added 20 drops to bring it to 4ppm and havent added another drop in 4 weeks, its a 10g tank. I have read just about everything on cycling, i have heater at 84° water level is lower so it aggitates for bubbles. The Ph is 7.6 and ive changed total about 75%

 

[Ch4rlie]

Can i ask what test kit your are using?
 
Seems odd, your ammonia has not changed since doing water changes.
 
And also, do you have any plants in the tank? 

 

[bsud]

api master kit and yes i have right now one anubias and one aspongtus(sp)

 

[Ch4rlie]

Hmm.
 
Is the API test kit still in date and you're following instructions as stated?
 
Also what ammonia are you using?
 
 

 i have heater at 84° water level is lower so it aggitates for bubbles.

 
Is it a filter you're using or airstones?
 
Sorry for all the questions, just want o get a clearer picture of what is happening.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Sounds like Dr. Tim's ammonium chloride. But that is twice the dose.
 
What water went into the tank and what other things did you add?
 
Something is out of whack.

 

[bsud]

im using a filter my water level is lower so it hits and bubbles the water. The test kit has 2016 yr date on it. Im hitting and shaking the fool out of the nitrate test and yes following all others to a T. Also im using pure ace hardware ammonia the 10% kind that doesnt fizz when shook. Whats blowing my mind is even if i had missed the nitrites and ive got 40ppm nitrate all that should be lowering the ammonia

 

[Ch4rlie]

That is a puzzler!
 
Are you adding anything else to the tank? i.e ph up or down air anything like that.
 
De-chloring the tap water?
 
What filter media are you using?
Have you been cleaning the filter / media at all.
 
Something is amiss somewhere, just not sure what it is.
 
What parameters is the tap water?
Have you tested for gH & kH?
 
Ammonia,  it still at 4ppm?
 
The plant - 
 

api master kit and yes i have right now one anubias and one aspongtus(sp)

 
Can you identify what the 'aspongtus' is, i do not know what plant that is, posting a pic of it may help identify exactly what it is.
 
Am trying to pinpoint anything at all, that may give a clue as to why ammonia is not dropping, very unusual.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

For a start ammonia is not measured in drops unless you have siomething like Dr. tim's ammonium chloride which is packaged in a bottle that dispenses in drops. There is an ammonia calc on this site that tells one how many ml of ammonia to add to a tank of X size in order to produce Y ppm. In your case using 10% ammonia to produce 4 ppm in one gallon takes .15 ml of ammonia. There are approximately 20 drops in 1 ml. So you should have about 6 and 2/3 gallons of water in your tank? I bet that is not the case?
 
I distrust the nitrate kits. Assuming 0 nitrate in your tap then to make 40 ppm of nitrate you need to start with about 11 ppm of ammonia. This should take multiple additions during a cycle and 0 water changes. In the absence of other influences 1 ppm of ammonia becomes 2.56 ppm of nitrite and then 3.46 ppm of nitrate.
 
Next, the biggest issue I have is with your reporting a steady 4 ppm level. This simply is not possible for a whole host of reasons:
 
1. The plant would use some of the ammonia and if it is too much, the plant will suffer or even die. Too much ammonia is as bad for plants as it is for fish.
2. Ammonia is gas that will evaporate over time. This is why using store brands can have the issue of varying strength. $ week in a tank with surface aggitation should lower ammonia some.
3. Even if you are wrong and have overdose ammonia, there are still bacteria that will process at higher levels. they are not the ones wanted long term in a tank, rather they are like the ones that are found in waste water treatment. Some of them would have begun to work in a tank with too much ammonia.
4. Assuming a test kit is accurate (this includes proper use of it), if one has X ammonia in a tank and changes 25% of the water adding ammonia free water back, then the ammonia reading should drop by 25% to .75X. In your case a 25% wc should drop ammonia to 3 ppm and a 2nd 25% would further lower that to 2.25 ppm.
 
What all of the above tells me is that the results your are reporting simply cannot be real/accurate. The are not possible. Trying to find out why you are getting these results is not so easy remotely. Over 4 weeks there are many things you may have done including some mistakes. You could be testing wrong or your kit could be faulty. The way I like to show that these reading simply cannot happen is to challenge folks to try to replicate them. Could you figure out a way to produce the results you appear to be getting? Could you make a tank test for 4 ppm of ammonia 24/7 for 4 weeks?
 
I reread you other thread too. Nowhere in that one or this one do you mention a number of relevant things, most importantly what size tank you have?? Here is other info to provide that should help:
 
1. Tap parameters: pH, KH, Nitrate, Ammonia
2. Tank parameters: pH, KH, Temp.
3. Brand of decchlor.
4. Ammonia dosing and water change history.
5. Anything else added to the tank such as ferts., bacteria, etc.

 

[bsud]

ok only thing i added was safe start to kick off bacteria, no ph up or down. I have no way of testing gh and kh as i dont have that kit. I have no filter media cause i couldnt get ahold of any my tank is a 10g. This has been so frustrating and thats why im about to do a complete wc and go with a fish in cycle and use the prime i already have, btw thats what declhor i use as well. Also the other plant is apongeton and here is a pic
here is my other plant apongeton

 

[bsud]

For a start ammonia is not measured in drops unless you have siomething like Dr. tim's ammonium chloride which is packaged in a bottle that dispenses in drops. There is an ammonia calc on this site that tells one how many ml of ammonia to add to a tank of X size in order to produce Y ppm. In your case using 10% ammonia to produce 4 ppm in one gallon takes .15 ml of ammonia. There are approximately 20 drops in 1 ml. So you should have about 6 and 2/3 gallons of water in your tank? I bet that is not the case?
 
I distrust the nitrate kits. Assuming 0 nitrate in your tap then to make 40 ppm of nitrate you need to start with about 11 ppm of ammonia. This should take multiple additions during a cycle and 0 water changes. In the absence of other influences 1 ppm of ammonia becomes 2.56 ppm of nitrite and then 3.46 ppm of nitrate.
 
Next, the biggest issue I have is with your reporting a steady 4 ppm level. This simply is not possible for a whole host of reasons:
 
1. The plant would use some of the ammonia and if it is too much, the plant will suffer or even die. Too much ammonia is as bad for plants as it is for fish.
2. Ammonia is gas that will evaporate over time. This is why using store brands can have the issue of varying strength. $ week in a tank with surface aggitation should lower ammonia some.
3. Even if you are wrong and have overdose ammonia, there are still bacteria that will process at higher levels. they are not the ones wanted long term in a tank, rather they are like the ones that are found in waste water treatment. Some of them would have begun to work in a tank with too much ammonia.
4. Assuming a test kit is accurate (this includes proper use of it), if one has X ammonia in a tank and changes 25% of the water adding ammonia free water back, then the ammonia reading should drop by 25% to .75X. In your case a 25% wc should drop ammonia to 3 ppm and a 2nd 25% would further lower that to 2.25 ppm.
 
What all of the above tells me is that the results your are reporting simply cannot be real/accurate. The are not possible. Trying to find out why you are getting these results is not so easy remotely. Over 4 weeks there are many things you may have done including some mistakes. You could be testing wrong or your kit could be faulty. The way I like to show that these reading simply cannot happen is to challenge folks to try to replicate them. Could you figure out a way to produce the results you appear to be getting? Could you make a tank test for 4 ppm of ammonia 24/7 for 4 weeks?
 
I reread you other thread too. Nowhere in that one or this one do you mention a number of relevant things, most importantly what size tank you have?? Here is other info to provide that should help:
 
1. Tap parameters: pH, KH, Nitrate, Ammonia
2. Tank parameters: pH, KH, Temp.
3. Brand of decchlor.
4. Ammonia dosing and water change history.
5. Anything else added to the tank such as ferts., bacteria, etc.

If you read carefully I do tell in these post what size tank I have and what my Ph and other readings were. Only ones not mentioned are gh and kh because i do not have those test kits. I also mentioned i use prime as my dechlor because someone else asked the same things.

 

[bsud]

ok what i decided to do and have just done, was about a 75% wc to see if my ammonia got down to around 1ppm or so If it did Im gonna wait another week or so to see if it drops on its own from there. If it doesnt then im gonna do another wc to get the ammonia to .25 or 0 and do i fish in cycle if nothing happens this time. Surely the big wc i just did will drop ammonia so we will see. I will test in about an hour or so and let you guys know what happened, i will post pic of my ammonia reading.

 

[bsud]

Ok this is about hour and half after 75% wc. here are my readings. Ammonia may have went down a tad, Ph 7.6, nitrite 0, nitrates went down to around 20ppm. It is blowing my mind that ammonia is not dropping much after that big of a wc!! The only thing i can think of is I must of absolutly overdosed the fool of ammonia and just dont realize that 20 drops was way to much. It looks like i need to go ahead and do another 75% wc until i get that ammonia level on down to 1 or less?