Starting Up With Tufa Rock

[andywg]

Hate to get involved in this, especially since I said I wouldn't.

andywg: It is possible indeed to slander on the interenet, it doesn't have to be verbal.

Get a dictionary mate. Slander is saying something verbally that is proved to not be true. Once it is written it is libel. Simple as that. There is no cross over. Probably best you step out again... At least Cheshnut had been starting to try and be more mature about it and get their facts right. From this site: courts.delaware.gov/How%20To/court%20proceedings/

Libel: Published words or pictures that falsely and maliciously defame a person. Libel is published defamation; slander is spoken.

I cannot simply link my info; i read it from books and watch it on shows. I get only a very small percentage of my info from the internet. Seeing as I am not an "internet junkie", i will tell you a sample of where my info comes from:

On the program The Blue Realm, they almost always deal with cephs. I try to say what they said, and then tell you where i got it from. So, my post is often a reference in itself.

I also watch many other various marine programs. And i have read books, although the names escape me now.

I extremly rarely simply post my opinions and call them fact, as you two say i do. And the reason i say "if you dont see it...." is because ill often give a reference in the post. It's not something linkable, though.

One more thing i have noticed: Mr. miagi, take your last post and apply it to yourselves.
I often dont see any links or references in your posts. They look just like you say mine do. I know this may be hard to realize, since most people lack self awareness as deep as mine. Remember to practice what you preach.

So ill say that again: Compadres?

-Lynden

If you read the book state who wrote it and (if you remember it) the title, ideally state the pages it comes from. I could say I read a book that said research shows the moon is made of cheese. There is no scientific data to combat this but it does not make my point any more valid. If I give the title then you can go out and check and see ewhat is really said.

Be very wary of using TV programmes as sources of information. You do realise the vast majority of programmes (especially those pertaining to be factual) pick up one point of view and run that for the length. They do not take a neutral stance and judge the evidence on its merits and its merits alone. They need to be at least semi-sensational with what they show in order to attract viewers.

If you ever want to search for proper research on the net ignore google and hit google scholar. It purely searches research papers and quoted references and is very good (though a lot of the reading can be a bit hard going).

Incidentally, if you look at the summary of this research: http/md1.csa.com/partners/viewrecord.php...2&setcookie=yes

You will see they state:

Following long-term exposure to ammonia there were severe histopathological changes in gill structure and oxygen uptake may have been seriously impaired. A high incidence of disease was also observed. (Katz)

The above is featured in The Effect of Ammonia Exposure on Gill Structure of the Rainbow Trout (Salmo Gairdneri), Smart, G: Journal of Fishery Biology Vol. 8, 1976, p. 471-475, 7 fig., 34 ref.

That alone would make me not want to submit fish to the porlonged ammonia levels found in a cycling tank.

 

[Mr Miagi]

One more thing i have noticed: Mr. miagi, take your last post and apply it to yourselves.
I often dont see any links or references in your posts.

How can you say that? What information have i contributed to this thread? Very little if any. I havnt made any statements regarding factual information on this whole 'debate'. So the need to reference isnt there. Attached is the .pdf document ive been taught to use at university for referencing material. Just so you can pick up some tips if you want to.

I know this may be hard to realize, since most people lack self awareness as deep as mine.

 

[Lynden]

One more thing i have noticed: Mr. miagi, take your last post and apply it to yourselves.
I often dont see any links or references in your posts.

Sorry to sound as if I was singleing you out; I meant the two of you.

I know this may be hard to realize, since most people lack self awareness as deep as mine.

You know, by insulting me, you are not adding any maturity to this debate.
I actually do have tremendous self-awareness; one of its factors is that, by the time you have read a post of mine, it is likely I have thought it out nearly 200 times, and thought of every possible response. There is a word I am looking for that this example may also be reffered to as; but this escapes me at the moment.

Thanks for the tips: i will attempt to use them to link my info. Also, i am indeed aware that some programs only see one side. However, the ones I view usually do not.

That quote on the effects of ammonia is very true; especially on fry. My former friend and neglectant fishkeeper once got his swordtails to spawn, however the babies perished from ich. I told him the factors of why this may be; he merely sluffed me off angrily and blamed the LFS manager for not saving his fish with a method he did not wholly recommend. Funny story; he also keeps tropicals with goldfish and is too "energy conservative" to use a heater on his main tank.

But enough of that, it is indeed true that fish will live longer if kept out of cycling, however this difference is very marginal with most freshwater and damselfish. One thing to realize about the quote is that fishes of the Salmo genus are cold-water, fast-swimming and highly oxygen dependant. It is no suprise to me that they suffered under high ammonia.

So, were still friends, right?
Thanks again,
-Lynden

 

[andywg]

I would dispute the fact that cycling with fish has little difference. Look in the tropical sections, how many of those people lost fish through cycling? a lot more than would be necessary to say it is just a small effect. And remember that in saltwater ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are more toxic than in FW.

I know the point about the Salmo genus, but there are very few studies on the impact of cycling with fish commonly available to the home aquarist. I myself would doubt that damselfish would live as long after cycling though.

Never weren't friends, but stating how you have a deeper sense of awareness than others and that you feel like a scientist teaching a dog to speak English leaves you wide open to ridicule and insult - especially while you have had your argument picked apart by exterior sources.

Last point, how do you know the programmes you watch aren't biased? Do they give you a bibliography of all their sources of information at the end so you can read it and make your own mind up? I'm betting not. Most likely they will have the phrase "recent, ground-breaking research..." which normally means its new and not many people agree with it. I know it wouldn't be easy, but my respect for nature programmes went downhill when I was around 12 and realised that all the sounds are laid on in a studio and many are just two sound effects guys making what they think it should sound like.

 

[macpegg]

I my self Cycled with LR i would def not ever cycle with fish, I can`t kill a spider never mind watching a fish gasping whilst looking at me. There should be rules for people who go into marines.. In most good reptile stores you are givin a test before they let you buy anything, some even want to see your setup. The same should go for people who want a marine setup. It would not only gain that LFS trust it would also make them more money.. because the person who is setting it up would have a setup in a yr to come and would still buying.

Even have a license. atleast then people with any sense would actually own a marine. Too much money and time goes into this, and you start to love it, and even pick the setup over ya wife!! Therefore everything in the tank even the snails etc have meaning.. Just for someone to cycle inproperly needs to be shot..

 

[Lynden]

I my self Cycled with LR i would def not ever cycle with fish, I can`t kill a spider never mind watching a fish gasping whilst looking at me. There should be rules for people who go into marines.. In most good reptile stores you are givin a test before they let you buy anything, some even want to see your setup. The same should go for people who want a marine setup. It would not only gain that LFS trust it would also make them more money.. because the person who is setting it up would have a setup in a yr to come and would still buying.

Even have a license. atleast then people with any sense would actually own a marine. Too much money and time goes into this, and you start to love it, and even pick the setup over ya wife!! Therefore everything in the tank even the snails etc have meaning.. Just for someone to cycle inproperly needs to be shot..

So youre saying that I, as well as many other fishcyclers, should be shot? Thats a fairly hatred filled statement. On top of that, youre saying I shouldnt be allowed to keep marine fish? Golly gee, that's the kindest statement I have ever seen.

I cant kill a spider either, hell, I cant even kill an ant or an amphipod, or even an annoying fly.
I do have common sense, my fish do well, and the biggest reason I have done fish cyclings is because that is what i have been brought up knowing how to do. I have never read a book, or physically talked to a person who says fish cyclings are cruel.

Nowadays, I plan to setup my new marine system with LR, wait for the ammonia to convert, and then wait until the nitrites have gone down a little. Then, I will add a few mollies, to get the bioload coming.

I have yet to lose a FW fish through cycling. It just doesnt happen to me. And I once added a Firemouth to a half-hour old FW system, that had had chemicals added. He ate everyday after that.

When i stated that I felt like a scientist, I wasnt really talking about you guys on TFF. At least not you, Andywg. And i actually do have a lot of self awareness.

I knew the programs werent biased because they asked a question, and then went on to look at a number of biologist's opinions. Either that, or they showed the animal and then showed different people talking about it, with mixed opinions. I have a strong ability to discriminate opinions vs neutral statements, so i often form my own views if the show is ever biased.

-Lynden

 

[Navarre]

My god! I turn my back for a couple of days and all hell breaks loose

Seriously everyone, I pride myself and the marine forum because of the conduct that is usually displayed between members here but the way this thread has deteriorated is beyond belief.

First of all lets get back to the main part of the tread in the first place...

Tuffa rock was used a few years ago when liverock was either completely unavailable or highly expensive ( i mean even more than now).

Whilst tuffa rock might seem an obvious choice as far as its composition and costs effectiveness is concerned there are sadly a few dangers that means i would never consider using it in my tanks again. First of all its manmade and thus it simply wont function as good as live rock. More importantly, Tuffa rock has a side effect of acting like a sponge and absorbing nutrients and unwanted protiens chemicals etc. This means it can function for years with no problems and then all of a sudden you get massive spikes of some form or another as the rock releases all its stored unwanted waste. The end result is usually a tank wipe out or if you are lucky then its simply very very bad water quality. If you are having fish only then tuffa rock will probably be fine, however if you intened to make a reef either now or at later date then the burrowing worms and creatures could inadvertantly release stored products deep within the rock.

My advice is to tear it out and steer clear, the quick fix method now usually turns out to be the long term pain in the ass in the long months ahead.

Its mentioned that the cost of the liverock is a barrier at the moment... Well I know that i am one of the first to shout that marines can be worked on a tight budget but not at the expense of cutting corners on filtration and not using liverock. The simple but harsh truth is that if liverock cannot be afforded then perhaps marines are not the avenue that should be followed. If expense is a problem then might i suggest that livesand is used and as much liverock that "can" be afforded should be placed in the tank. Whilst this means the tank wont be at full strength as far as filtration is concerend, it does mean that it has the best of what you can afford and thus a light (very light) stocking level could function in the current system.

As for cycling with live fish... There as 2 arguments here and i am firmly in favour of the least impact on the health of my inhabitants. It just doesnt seem to make any logic why i would put "hardy" fish in a system and allow them to breath ammonia when a simple prawn will do the same thing and no harm is caused to anything. As for a prawn method being unreliable.. well all things die.. all things that are dead will rot.. this is not inconsistant nor will it fluctuate. A decaying bit of material will decay at a constant rate (minor fluctautions with temperature changes of course) whereas a fish will not breath at a constant rate and thus create the same ammount of ammonia per breath.. Some fish are tranquil and will breath slowly but at times they might be startled or chased etc and this will increase their breathing and the ammonia they give off. So a decaying prawn will be far more stable than fish IMO.

However, we are forgetting the magic ingredient that we marine keepers have at our disposal.. Liverock.. Fully cured liverock means you tank is instantly cycled and thus no need for harming fish or throwing away your evenings dinner of scampi to the tank!


The type of fish being placed in the tank to cycle is also a poor choice for the months ahead. Damsels are pretty fish, they are active too and seem very nice when in your shops display tanks. However, they dont get their nickname of devil fish for nothing. I have seen damsels that are minute in size attack and harrass huge angels and tangs that are introduced to the system after they are established. Unless you really want to keep damsels i strongly recomend that you keep well clear of keeping them. I will never let one of these fish come anywhere near my system.

Lastly, I will say there there is no definative right or wrong way to run a system. What might work for one could be a disaster for others. We can only give our opinions and experiences and hope that this in some way helps others in their path for a great tank. May i remeind people here that they have made mistakes in the past and are likely too again, its not good practice to flame them or attack them when in months to come you might be asking for their advice in certain areas.