Starting An Angelfish Community

[FingersofFish]

Hi there,
 
I have been in the hobby for around a year and a half now, and currently own a low tech heavily planted 33gal tropical community which I am very happy with.
 
Now, my partner just LOVES angelfish, everytime we go to the fish store she wants them... and yes, I explain time and time again that they can't go along with my other community fish.
 
So, i've had the idea to start a new planted angelfish tank, but I'll be honest, I have no idea about angelfish, as most of the fish I keep are fairly normal... etc. Cherry Barbs, Brilliant Rasbora which happily inhabit my community.
 
So my basic questions from the off are.....
 
1) How larger of a tank would I need... for perhaps a pair of angelfish and 'some' other fish which would get along okay with them?
 
2) How difficult are they to care for, should I wait until i've a couple more years in the hobby under my belt
 
3) What other tankmates can angels have without eating or terrorising them?
 
 
P.s - I've a fairly small house with not a GREAT deal of possible tank space, sort of 3ft long is the maximum i'm looking at so if that wouldn't be possible with angels then just tell me straight!
 
Thanks!

 

[LyraGuppi]

1) How larger of a tank would I need... for perhaps a pair of angelfish and 'some' other fish which would get along okay with them?
 
I'm never good with numbers...I'd say a 40 at least for a breeding pair, and maybe a 75 for a colony?
 
2) How difficult are they to care for, should I wait until i've a couple more years in the hobby under my belt
 
They are cichlids, and cichlids are moody. I've seen some angels that are cool as a clam, but heard stories of some that are royal terrors. I think the best way to avoid this is plant the tank, and watch them. You could take the leap, I'd think.
 
3) What other tankmates can angels have without eating or terrorising them?
 
Many tetras and rasboras can be kept with angels, but pretty much anything small (like a neon) may get eaten. Try going for a disc shaped tetra, like flame or diamond. Smaller, peaceful cichlids can also be combined with them, like rams.
 
P.s - I've a fairly small house with not a GREAT deal of possible tank space, sort of 3ft long is the maximum i'm looking at so if that wouldn't be possible with angels then just tell me straight!
Sorry, I'm not entirely sure how long a 75 gallon is.

 

[Akasha72]

Hi, I have a pair of anglefish in my 4ft tank along with tetra's and harlequins (you can see my full stock in my signature) If you are looking for just a pair of angels then 3ft should be okay but I hasten to add that the tank depth is of major importance here. My Juwel Rio 240 is about 50cm deep and I wouldn't keep angels is much less than that. 
 
Regarding care - the general answer is no, they're fairly easy to feed etc. Because they are SA cichlids they need protein rich food but they can get that from say a frozen block of something like bloodworm or artemia or similar a couple of days a week. There are specific dry foods aimed at SA cichlids though too. New Era do a good SA cichlid pellet which my angels love.
 
What you will need to be aware of is angelfish behaviour. It's easy to see them in the store and think they they're going to just glide gracefully and peacefully around your tank causing no trouble. Nothing can be further from the truth - especially if you get a pair considering breeding. They can be aggressive, they can (and probably will) tear each others fins and sometimes breeding behaviour can resemble a dog fight. It can get stressful to watch as there is nothing we can do as keepers to stop them from being angelfish. 
There is a video in the SA cichlid section of my angelfish getting into breeding mode and being in their aggressive mood - it's titled 'it's war in angelfish land'. If you want to check it out.
 
Regarding tank mates. Look for larger tetra's - emperors are good as they are confident enough to deal with any aggression and also won't nip angels fins. Others can be deeper bodied fish. There is a theory that if you add the angels as small young fish and they get to grow up with smaller fish they don't see them as food - I've done this with mine and so far none of my smaller fish have become angelfish 'snacks'. 
One fish to avoid with angels would be oto's. There are reports of angels attempting to eat them and then the oto extends it's barbed fins trapping itself in the angels throat. The result is the death of both fish. Other fish to avoid would be anything thin - think of it as them getting sucked up like spaggetti.
 
I feed my angels well, they get fed twice daily. There is a reason for this. I keep them well fed so they don't get hungry enough to see my remaining oto's (I won't be getting anymore) or my harlequins as dinner!!
 
 
Hopefully there's some useful info there

 

[TwoTankAmin]

That is basically a myth about growing out angels and smaller fish together keeps the angels from eating them. The whole issue is one of the size of the two fish. if the smaller fish is too large to fit in an angel's mouth, the angel will basically leave it alone. So when combining angels with smaller fish there are several possibilities which relate to the sizes of the two fish. When both fish start small and grow together, the small fish is always too big for the angel to eat and the angels never gains a size advantage. If you start with smaller angels and more mature smaller fish, again no problem since the small fish is already to big to be dinner..
 
However, if you start with angels of decent size and smaller fish that are young and thus quite small, then they will easily fit in the angel's mouth and your small fish will start to disappear.
 
As noted above, the time angels are most dangerous to a community tank is when spawning. They are cichlids after all.
 
Although it has been around for a long time, this is a pretty decent general article on keeping and breeding angels http/fins.actwin.com/species/angelfish.html

 

[aquaGG]

I do have a pair of Koi Angel in a 72g. A couple, they give me babies all the time. I just place farlowella with them, they don't touch the eggs,  it's a 48"  aquarium, as you can see they have more space than needed, a 36" will do well
 
 

 
Eggs on an Echino
 

 
babies swiming with mom and dad
 

 
Young Angel 
 

 

[Akasha72]

my angels must just be really good then TTA. They're now adult sized and over the weekend I added 5 new harlequins. All 5 are small enough to fit in an angels mouth but they're leaving them alone. 
That said I wouldn't trust them with 5 young neons. I have read about young glow light tetra's being angelfish 'lunch' on another forum. 

 

[FingersofFish]

Thanks for the wealth of information you've all given.

Some of you really do have very beautiful tanks too.

Seems like it's something I may definitely go ahead with, now time to price it all up and see how long I'll need to save to do it properly! I don't do anything by halves as I'd rather the fish be happy from the off!

I usually buy my tanks second hand (had some real bargains in the past Infact my 33G with stand and exteneral filter only set me back £80! But understandably this tank is more specific so....

I've heard angelfish like a taller tank, but that seems to contradict that they sometimes like to get away from eachother? would something like a 45G high be okay? I only realistically have 90cm of floor space available

 

[Akasha72]

even though my two angels are a breeding pair they still seem to like being able to get away from each other from time to time. The way I've planted my tank is to have an open swimming area in the middle and the planting to the side. This means all my fish - including my angels - have a space to chill, rest and hide and a place to swim freely. It seems to work, they certainly seem happy with it.

 

[Byron]

You have had some excellent advice from the angelfish experts, so I will just add to a couple of points that you've asked about.
 
First up, the tank size.  Angelfish will attain 6 inches (15 cm) in length, with a vertical fin span of 8+ inches (20 cm) [assuming the standard species, Pterophyllum scalare from which all the varieties occur].  So you need vertical space, but as has been mentioned, the fish also need room to swim apart.
 
The first thing to decide is if you want a mated breeding pair, or a shoal.  Angels are shoaling fish that live in smallish groups and establish an hierarchy within the group, and continually challenge each other in that hierarchy.  I would not recommend fewer than five angelfish if you decide on a group.  Two, three or even four is not advisable (except for a mated pair) as this will almost inevitably result in trouble.  There are always exceptions, but assuming the norm is safer.  A group of 5-6 means a 4-foot tank minimum.
 
By mated pair we mean fish that accept each other.  Sexing angelfish in the store tank when they will most likely be young or juvenile is almost impossible.  Head profiles and other "clues" are not reliable.  The interaction of the fish themselves may be, but remember that within a group there will be back-and-forth manoeuvring, and sorting out a possible "pair" is not easy.  It is best to let the fish grow up in a group and in time the pairs will form and be obvious.  Even if you can tell male/female and buy one of each, there is absolutely no guarantee that the fish will mate; the male can easily kill the female if they are in close proximity, and to angelfish almost any aquarium is close proximity.
 
I came across a lovely video a while back, of a group (11 I believe) of wild-caught P. scalare (from the Rio Cuini) in an aquarium.  I think this is about as perfect as it can get for this beautiful fish, with respect to tank size, fish numbers, and tankmates which are restricted here to a group of Corydoras duplicarius.  You will observe the continual "challenge" and interaction between the fish in this shoal, which is natural and what has to be provided for in terms of tank space and numbers.
 
https/www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gXVgWLbZ-g
 
Byron.

 

[Akasha72]

stunning video Byron and even more stunning to see them in a 'natural enviroment' ... by that I mean a good blackwater inspired tank. This is what I'd like to own in the future.
I have to say though .. they did look awfully cramped up

 

[TwoTankAmin]

If you want to see some incredibly gorgeous angels...
[media]https/www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTAbuTYGk0M&list=UUZHuEhmXzuA1iT-zGgKdPKg[/media]

 

[Akasha72]

I've seen that one TTA - have you seen part one where they video them in the wild and catch some? Wow, it's a sight to see. Seeing them in that natural enviroment makes me want to turn my tank into blackwater inspired right now! 
 
I know the stained water isn't for everyone but personally I love it

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I was building an Altum collection some time ago and it was interrupted by a year of health issues that made it difficult to do regular maint. At the start I had 8 angels for over a year in one tank and another 19 growing out in a 55 gal. At the end of the first 6 months I was basically down to 4 and they were in soso shape. I still have them and they have grown, but they will never be great looking due to the neglect earlier on. I have the 4 in a stained water tank with no live plants. I am debating going back and staring over and ending up with them in the 150 gal. I don't know if I have the patience since I tend to start with wild ones om water with a pH in the low 4s and TDS in the 25 -30 ppm range.
 
I am able to acclimate them up toward the high 6s and TDS in the 60s which make things easier- but it takes me many months to do that. These were some of the ones I lost about 15 months after this pic.

 

[Akasha72]

still lovely looking fish. Sorry to hear you lost them though

 

[FingersofFish]

Sorry to resurrect this from the dead! 
 
But thanks to all your great advice i've decided to bite the bullet and go ahead with this project!
 
So a little more advice is needed, I've recently picked up a bargain tank and stand (JUST £65!) which needs a little work - the tank is 180L or 47G so after sand/rock is in etc i'll put it at 45 US G which is about the most I could find for the space I had available at home!. Also picked up a 1200l/ph pump for £35.
 
It's early days but the to do list for work is -
 
- Rennovate tank stand
- Spray aquarium background matte black
- Add LED luminaire (Classica Stretch 90cm model)
- Buy heater(s) - I was thinking 2x 150w for equal temperature?
- Consider some form of condensation tray/cover glass? Do angels jump?
- Purchase substrate/rocks/wood and aquascape
- Cycle (Now could i shove a load of extra media into my external I have running on my 125L for a few weeks, then put it in the new filter? would this remove the need for cycling)
- Consider plant choices.
- Purchase plants and plant up
- Consider stocking
 
 
Now what I really need a bit of advice on is stocking.
 
What i've been thinking is:
 
Option A:
 
7x Angels
5x Gold Barbs
11 - 17x Shoal of smaller fish (suggestions?)
 
OR
 
Option B:
 
A pair of angels (1M & 1F)
7x Golden Barbs (Mixed)
11-17x Shoal of Smaller fish (Suggestions?)
 
 
 
How do those set-ups go in terms of swimming levels and compatibility?