Sorry But Yet Another Fishless Cycle

[markward123]

HI All,

Like the title says, sorry but I could do with your help / advice please?

I'm Mark from Ashbourne, Derbyshire - completely new to the fishkeeping business so please excuse what may be stupid questions!. Thought I'd start off small with a 48 litre Interpet tank, 1 piece of bogwood, 2 small pieces rock, 5 plants with black Roman gravel. Wanted to get some mature media from somewhere / a filter squeeze but didn't know anyone who had a tank near me and lfs's wouldn't. I've read quite a lot about the fishless cycle - other websites I'm afraid which differ slightly to this (at least I'm a convert now!). My cycle so far is somewhere inbetween the 'Wait & See' and 'Add Daily' models described here.

Tank has been kept at 30 degrees C since the start 14 days ago.

By way of background my tap water (perhaps not the same stuff they put in bottles of 'Ashbourne water'!) reads as follows:

PH - 5.8
Ammonia - 0.0
Nitrite - 0.0
Nitrate - 0.0

KH - 17.9
GH - 71.6

Like I say, I'm 14 days into the cycle. The method of fishless cycle I have been using is to bring Ammonia to 5ppm, 24 hours later measure the drop and top back up to 5ppm. Results to date:

Date: / Time: / PH: / Ammonia: / Nitrite: / Nitrate: / Comments:
04 Nov / 1700 / 5.8 / 0.0 / 0.1 / 0.0 / Added 2ml Ammonia to bring to 5ppm / Added 1ml FilterStart
05 Nov / 1700 / 5.8 / 5.0 / 0.1 / 0.0 / NothingAdded
06 Nov / 1730 / 6.5 / 2.4 / 0.3 / 15.0 / Added 1ml Ammonia to bring to 5ppm / Added 1ml FilterStart
07 Nov / 1715 / 6.8 / 2.4 / 0.2 / 10.0 / Added 1ml Ammonia to bring to 5ppm
08 Nov / 1700 / 6.8 / 2.4 / 0.5 / 20.0 / Added 1ml Ammonia to bring to 5ppm / Added 1ml FilterStart
09 Nov / 1645 / 6.8 / 5.0 / 1.6 / 80.0 / Nothing Added.
10 Nov / 1700 / 6.8 / 4.9 / 1.6 / 80.0 / No Ammonia Added / Added 1ml FilterStart
11 Nov / 1630 / 6.7 / 2.4 / 2.2 / 110.0 / Added 1ml Ammonia to bring to 5ppm
12 Nov / 1700 / 5.6 / 1.4 / 2.2 / 110.0 / Added 1.25ml Ammonia to bring to 5ppm / Added 1ml FilterStart
13 Nov / 1715 / 5.5 / 1.5 / 2.0 / 110.0 / Added 1ml Ammonia to bring to 5ppm
14 Nov / 1700 / 5.5 / 2.4 / 2.9 / 110.0 / Added 1ml Ammonia to bring to 5ppm / Added 1ml FilterStart
15 Nov / 1615 / 5.7 / 1.9 / 2.9 / 110.0 / Added 1ml Ammonia to bring to 5ppm
16 Nov / 1345 / 5.7 / 2.5 / 3.0 / 110.0

At this point I did a 25% dechlorinated water change - wondered if it would help raise PH (stupid really when tap water is 5.8 as well! Doh!), and bring down nitrates

After water change, results:

16 Nov / 1700 / 5.8 / 1.3 / 2.2 / 100.0 / Added 1ml Ammonia to bring to 5ppm / Added 1ml FilterStart (finished adding this now)

As you can see, not much change in either PH or nitrates!

Today's readings at 1700:

PH - 5.8
Ammonia - 1.8
Nitrite - 2.9
Nitrate - 110.0+

KH - 17.9
GH - 71.6

Questions to you all:

1. Is this going as expected? Difficult question I know but how long do you think we are talking now before it's 'fish-time'? Kids are getting fed up!

2. Should I alter what I am doing and adopt the 'wait and see' method described on this site? i.e. let Ammonia drop to near zero then top up to 5ppm?

3. Should I worry about PH? Don't know what happened when in early part of process where PH increased to 6.5+, but then it seemed to drop rapidly on 12th Nov - was this a PH crash? I hear this can halt the growth process.

4. Should I have done a water change? Has this messed it up? I'm surprised nitrates didn't fall more?

5. If PH is a problem, what can I do to raise it? I've read a teaspoon of bicarb will do it but only short term. Also heard egg shells? Crushed coral? Aragonite - don't even know what that is - where do I get it and how much? I want to keep something like Tetras, Mollies, Platys, maybe some Cherry Shrimp, a nerite snail or 2. I know I'm pretty limited on numbers with this size tank.

6. I seem to have an increasing amount of what I think is either Diatoms or Red Algae on the bogwood (and some plant leaves) - looks almost like a brown dusty fur. Its not clouding the water but doesn't look particularly nice. What do you think this is, should I worry about it and how/when do I get rid of it? I did of course give it the wood a good scrub before it went in on day one.

That's it for now. Any feedback greatly appreciated!

Thanks

Mark

 

[minxfishy]

Hi, welcome to TFF and fishkeeping and its good to see someone do their research before jumping in and adding fish immediately, so well done you.

Ive only ever used the add and wait method, so my advice, would be to allow the ammonia to drop to 0 before adding it back up to 5ppm, you seem to be progressing quite well from your results, the ammonia is dropping, the nitrItes are rising as are the nitrAtes.

Doing a water change during the cycle wont effect the bacteria, providing you recharge with ammonia back up to 5ppm, no bacteria is held in the water, and when you have a ph crash its sometimes the only way to raise the ph up again (mine crashes constantly during a cycle), Ive done plenty of w/c during fishless cycles with no adverse effects or a delay in the finished cycle.

You have got quite a low ph as you say, so to keep it raised up then crushed coral added to the filter would help, but Im not very good with ph so someone with alot more experience of this can suggest other ways for you, my ph is high, so lowering it has always been my problem, but Ive gotten to the stage over the years that the best thing to do with ph is to leave it well alone, as playing around with it is not a good idea as a fluctuating ph is much worse for fish than a constant ph albeit too high or too low than the 'recommended' ph. But during your cycle, bicarb is probably the way to keep it raised.

I would expect with your results as they are, if you only add ammonia on the 0 reading that is should finish in another couple of weeks, you could even at this stage only add 3ppm to allow the nitrifying bacteria to catch with the load, then once you get 0 for ammonia and 0 for nitrIte, recharge with 5ppm again to finish the cycle off completely - if thats makes sense.

Oh and no question is a silly question, its always best to ask advice, its those people that dont ask or ignore good advice that are the silly ones, there are plenty of people on here with good advice who are happy to take the time to answer questions, so feel free to ask as many as you need.

Oh and the diatoms are completely normal, do you have the lights on for long periods of time? If so, lessen the light time, but its easy to rub off the brown algae with a soft bristled brush (new and never used for anything else) and it does eventually go away - usually to be replaced by green algae Its a never ending battle sometimes with algae.

 

[markward123]

Thanks Minxfishy - much appreciated.

I'll move over to the 'Wait & See' approach as you suggest and bring it down to 3ppm.

Regards crushed coral - sounds good but I've only got a small filter (Interpet PF1) so there's not much room in there to add stuff. Is it OK to just dump some at the back of the tank? Any clue as to how much and how often it needs changing if at all?

For adding bicarb during the process I take it this will ensure things keep moving? For my size tank (48L) how much do you put in? A teaspoon ok? Or is there a formula to work it out?

Sounds fun on the algae front! I take it I take the bogwood out of the tank to brush it - probably best when I do a water change so I do it in tank water? Once I'm cycled does anything eat diatoms? Shrimp or snails?

Once again, thanks for your advice!

 

[alchemist]

I would avoid 'dumping stuff in the tank' as you cant take it out again. I read elsewhere on this forum to try crushed coral in a cloth bag / net etc. so you can always reverse the process.

I don't think there is much point worrying about the ph until you have finished cycling the tank so that you know what the settled condition is going to be.

 

[OldMan47]

The cycle can stall if your pH is too low so adjusting it is not a bad idea. For the short term you can add in your teaspoon of bicarbonate and it will move your pH up some. No idea how much because we don't really know what has driven the pH down. The final number is not too critical because there are no fish and anything over 6.5 would be fine. In the long term, you will want to control your pH higher for most fish and you will not want to do it with chemicals. That means putting something like the crushed coral into your water flow path so that it can slowly dissolve in the tank water and thereby raise and buffer the pH. The filter media bags they make for carbon would work fine to hold some crushed coral. If it won't fit in your filter, put it where the flow from the filter will go across it.

 

[markward123]

Thanks everyone - I think I'll just keep PH up a little with bicarb so the cycle continues well. Visited Wharf Aquatics in Nottingham today (what a shop!). They said that would be a good idea, just quarter to half a teaspoon at a time to bring it back to around 6-7.

In the long term I'll try to get some crushed coral but haven't a clue where to get it. Someone mentioned aragonite doing the same thing? Anyone ever used this?

See this on ebay - is this the stuff?

Ebay - Aragonite


Will keep a record of my cycle here every couple of days - hope that's OK - just be useful to hear if something isn't progressing as it should so I can take action.

 

[minxfishy]

Hi, I dont know about the aragonite stuff on ebay, but you can buy aragonite sand in many LFS.

Ask the LFS about the crushed coral also, particularly one that sells malawi cichlids.

Feel free to record your fishless cycle here, any problems someone is always about to give advice

 

[markward123]

Thanks Minxfishy - much appreciated.