So Annoying

[andywg]

RTFM isn't always a valid answer - sometimes the manual is missing bits, or maybe it's just not that simple to understand or you want confirmation that you understood it right.

Careful on using that abbreviation. Inchworm put me on 40% warning level for reversing FTW in a discussion about what should and should not be accepted (so the term wasn't even used in anger). I'd hate to see someone else getting the same as I did while discussing with me.

Saying you "don't know the answer" is fine, giving wrong info isn't.

But, further to my points above, who has actually provided "wrong info"? There is no agreement about anything in fishkeeping other than that they need some water for most of the time. All methods on keeping a fish are opinion, not fact.

As to a saleperson, do you really trust a car salesperson to give you all the necessary relevant facts, or to just give you what they think will get you to buy the car? I repeat, why should an lfs get special treatment? We are all naturall suspicious of salespeople being aware that they are employed to sell and sell alone, yet an lfs is somehow different. Even tot he point that a defence of pets at home is that it is a pet store not a fish store, so we don't expect them to give us advice because they only deal in pets generally, not fish specifically.

Caveat emptor

 

[shibby]

A car salesperson sells a car, he doesn't teach you how to drive. Why do we expect an lfs to teach us everything about keeping fish.

No, a car salesman is simply a provider - it's down to the driving test examiners to ensure that you know how to drive. But, even so I would expect a car saleman to be able to tell me the features of the car and would expect him/her to know where the various controls of the car are and how they work, and what fuel is required/recommended, so that if a potential customer asked they could advise.

that being true im pretty sure that most, i wont say all lfs employees can tell you that you need a tank, heater(trop) filter, water and when to waterchange and feed, but i very much doubt they will all go in to scientific detail and cycling.

like i wouldnt expect a car salesman to strip my engine and fix it if it goes wrong, i also wont expect him to tell me how to drive it.

lfs and car salesman all being in another thread was called something like a rubbish anology arent really that different they sell you the basics + of course a few extras as always and expect you to figure it out. i mean yes i will asnwer questions if i get asked them to the best of my abilty but im not going to say everything you can and cant do, i think if your spending money and cant be bothered to research or majority wont listen, whats the point.

frustrates me no ends how many people cant or dont do there own self research.

though that said theres always two sides to it and ive been to some pretty bad lfs before to the point of being stunned, though people without the internet will continue to promote old methods that we now deem incorrect.

 

[JustKia]

The first place the general public are likely to ask for information is the place that sells the product they want. Asking people is the first step in research, it doesn't have to mean books and internet searches - shockingly some people still don't have internet connections.
If a car sales man can't say why car A is better than car B he isn't going to make a sale, the customer expects him to be able to help out.
Of course you wouldn't expect the sales person to teach you to drive or strip the engine - but you would expect the driving instructor to be able to teach and the mechanic to (hopefully) know how and what to do with your car.

Maybe I come from a different set of expectations, maybe I'm wrong for expecting a live fish sales person to be able to tell the customer (who has asked) that there is two ways to cycle their tank, maybe I expect too much.
I'm just a little confused as to why the negative reaction from some on here - surely you'd be for pet shops and fish shops giving positive info?

 

[andywg]

Maybe I come from a different set of expectations, maybe I'm wrong for expecting a live fish sales person to be able to tell the customer (who has asked) that there is two ways to cycle their tank, maybe I expect too much.

When one method is so new and somewhat without any great publication why do we expect everyone in an entire industry to be able to inform on it.

Also consider this: Old lfs owner trains his staff and they learn of fishless cycling which includes full stocking after a month or so. This goes against everything he has done (taking one's time and gradually building up the stocking monitoring the tank for the first 6 months). What are the chances of him telling his staff/customers to use this new method that he has no experience of and is the opposite of all his successful experience?

I'm just a little confused as to why the negative reaction from some on here - surely you'd be for pet shops and fish shops giving positive info?

After a while members who have been here a long time or those that have worked in an lfs get a bit tired of the number of people who come on and slate lfs and their employees, especially when the advice that the lfs gives out is not that bad at all, just different to the near consensus of how this board feels things should be done.

If you stick around for a year or so, watch some n00bs come in. You can almost guarantee that by the time they get to 6 months they will have posted about how an lfs gives out awful advice which has been advice that has served the older members well for some time. I am 99% certain I too did this. It's like a rite of passage.

 

[backtotropical]

I feel our discussion here has reached an impasse.

I agree. I have made my point and I shall conclude my debate by saying this

Should the LFS say "Bring me a sample of your tap water and i'll test it to make sure the pH and things are ok to keep fish in", then I would have no concerns.

The fact is that they say "Let your tank run for a week, then bring in a water sample" which implies that letting the tank run will somehow prepare it for fish, and the water sample will confirm that it has been run in accordingly. As we both know, this is not the case. This implication is proven quite often by newbies who think cycling is this very process.

That, for the avoidance of doubt, is the misleading information which Justkia speaks of. It may not be directly spoken, but it is certainly implied.

Running the tank for a week serves no purpose in preparing the tank for fish, and a water sample would be just as good taken from the tap and tested by the LFS a few hours later. I have said it already in this thread, and I will say it again now, I believe that was the original point.

I'm quite sure you will disagree, but as you point out, the very essence of fishkeeping is that there is virtually no concensus.

 

[JustKia]

I thought I'd been clear that I didn't expect everyone to know everything, but that if it was something they weren't clued up on that it would be preferable for them to call another staff member who could help.

The advice given wasn't so much "awful" and it didn't involve any "advice" was my point. I'm fish-in cycling - not to everyone's way of thinking I appreciate, but having considered the two options and seeing as I'm home almost all the time I have the time to be able to do tests and water changes as frequently as required.
The advice given was simply to run the filter (to be pedantic the staff person actually said "run the filter for a week", they didn't say to even run it in the tank - obvious? Maybe, maybe not), not even a suggestion as to maybe using a "bacteria in a bottle" (yes, I know there's plenty of discussion on it's worth, or not), didn't include gradual stocking (for fish in) or that there was various ways of cycling a filter, or even that a filter needed to be cycled one way or another.

Maybe I got spoilt by my LFS, OK so the one guy there wasn't particularly clued up, but the rest of the staff are brilliant. It's an old set up, been there for ages so I guess they've done it the old way plenty times but they can tell you about both types of cycling, so you can make your own mind up.

The point people make about "fish dies, customer buys more" doesn't really work because if the fish from shop x keep dying people aren't going to keep going back, they'll go somewhere else to get "better" fish and probably end up with better advice instead.

edit to add:
BTT said what I tried to say in many less words and many times better.