Sick Betta

[loraxchick]

im not sure what to do about my fish so im asking for advice.
a week ago i added three guppies to my betta tank and now all hell's broken loose. Yesterday afternoon i noticed the betta glancing and scratching off the tank and decor so i got up to see what he was doing (very out of character-ive never seen him do this even once in the year ive had him). upon looking at him, he had white stiringy patches on around his dorsal fin and i could see spots on his body that were becoming infected as well. looking at the guppies (who i got from a reputable lfs and were perfect looking when i added them) they have small patches of white on their fins too!!! my initial reaction (other than a few choice swear words) was to add salt...but i cant as i have two small cories in the tank and have no where to put them for want of not risking my other tanks if it is collumnaris or the like. the cories are unaffected by looking at them. no visible signs of scratching, lethargy etc. acting normal. other than cisible white patches, guppies acting fine as well.
so i have treated for 24 hours with half dose of melafix in the morning and half dose of pimafix in the evening.
the betta is not looking good!!!! he ate some bloodworms this morning soaked in garlic juice and only one this evening. he is laying at the bottom of the tank hiding in the plants...also not typical behavior. i am almost certain it is collumnaris. adding the melafix and pimafix was just precautionary as i was trying to determine what im up against with these fish...but after searching images and descriptions...its collumnaris i think. i DO have Erythromycin antibiotic which says treats collumnaris. BUT IM ALLERGIC TO IT!!! like, severely!!!!
i want to start treatment with antibiotics in the morning to give this guy a chance (he's my favorie fish)...but will my cories be ok? and i cant adjust my heater as it is "preset" for 78 degrees. there is lots of aeration in the tank. i do not run carbon as routine.
checked water stats and are as follows:
ammonia-0
nirIte-0
Nitrate-10
pH-7.0

i am seriously regretting the guppies. quarantine i should have but didnt...and now!!!

i am a staunch believer in not overusing antibiotics but i dont think i have a choice. and im worried about the erythromycin and my allergy to it...is there any US med. that is NOT erythromycin that i could use? Tetracycline perhaps? also my cories and their seeming low tolerance for meds....at this point i think it'd be best to treat the whole tank. would a salt bath for my betta be advised?
any and all help appreciated. The betta is not happy that's for sure, but i dont think he's turned a corner for the absolute worse yet, so id like to give him a chance if i could.

thanks in advance.

 

[arobinson1984]

I may be wrong but with columnaris you dont normally get the flicking and rubbing. These point more towards whitespot (ich)

Treat with 'protozin' by waterlife.

I'm sure wilder will be able to give more info is she is about.

Andy

 

[WILDER]

It sounds like columnaris to me. The fish can flick and rub with columnaris.
If its a bad strain of columnaris melafix is no good you need a bacterial med like myxazin with the pimafix.

Need to rule out parasites as well.
Any excess mucas on the body or gills of the fish.
Any signs of laboured breathing or gasping at surface of tank.
What do the fish gills look like, do they look pale with excess mucas or red and inflamed.
Any signs of darting or erratic swimming.

If you use antibiotics only use them in issolation, as they wipe the benefical bacteria out in the filter.

 

[loraxchick]

he is not gasping nor has laboured breathing. he is still eating and was QUITE hungry this morning. he just lazes around the bottom, comes up to the top for a while and then goes back to hiding. other than the flashing/glancing off objects in the tank, he is swimming normally. poop looks normal. im 100% certain it is not ich. it is more like slimy/mucosy along his sides and there is a very little bit of white/clearish stringy substance (this is why i think it may be columnaris. although maybe im just seeing the excess slime/mucus as it sloughs off and it appears stringy.
i am going to get a large bowl and isolate him and try salt first. i cannot add salt to this tank as there are cories in there. there is a SLIGHT improvement in his overall appearance today, but still lethargic although eating. water stats dead on (0-0-10)but i did a 50% water change anyway. he seems mch more active after this. and doing his happy dance.
i will keep updating and THANK YOU for you help/advice.
cheers!

 

[WILDER]

Also check for tiny red prick marks and sores on the fish.

Columnaris can cause excess slime aswell. Also it can peel the skin away.
But I would still keep a look out for parasites.
Here a good link to columnaris.
[URL="http/www.flippersandfins.net/flexibacter.htm"]http/www.flippersandfins.net/flexibacter.htm[/URL]


What do the fish gills look like.

 

[loraxchick]

i had read through that article Wilder while searching around for fishy illnesses. and at first he did kind of look like he had that white trailing slimy stuff trailing from him, albeit not to the extent or whiteness that you see in that first photo. my boy's "gunk" looked clearish as compared to that...but i was freaking out at the onset and immediately thought the worst, but the flicking didnt make sense as that generally isnt seen with flexobacter(or so i read with all the research i did)...i was gone all day yesterday after changing his water and re-dosing pimafix at a half dose (JUST in case of fungus) as i had family obligations until this afternoon. i contemplated my next "move" on how to medicate thinking about what id read and advice given here and from other sources...i got home tonight and to my absolute and overwhelming relief, he has ABSOLUTELY no sign that anything was wrong at all. all the sliminess is gone and he is super active and not flashing anymore...back to his old self...and he had a big appetite thru the whole thing.

i suspect some sort of external parasite (but definately not ich) which im sure came in with the recent fish i put in with him and have since removed...it caused his slime coat to thicken and the sloughing off is what i perceived as "whitish clearish fluff"...and that would also explain the flashing.

he never was gasping. he never stopped eating, although was lathargic and hid in the plants a lot. his gills look/ed perfect as did his poo.no fin rot, no secondary infections(externally anyway), no redness or swelling or ulcers.

would you agree that it may have been/may be some sort of external parasite that i could not see? i really think so as he is absolutely perfect looking today and his behavior is back to normal (although im continuing the pimafix for the next week as it hasnt hurt and just maybe was helping things).

i appreciate your info on all this....truly.
kind regards!

 

[WILDER]

The spots on the fish how big were they.
What med did you use?

 

[loraxchick]

The spots on the fish how big were they.
What med did you use?

the term spotts may have been mmisleeding. they were not a defined shape like youd see w/ ich or velvet. more like patches. i first noticed it along one side about a half cm in diameter. then it just spread from there. i am second guessing columnaris now for seveeral reasons. it was not white as i have seen in some photos i came avross. actually almost colorless, but trailing off his body. i feel it was mucus due to these characteristics. but why the mucus? its like his slimecoat got thicker staaarting in one areea and then spread over his body from the inital 'spot'. when he wasnt hiding in the plants he was flashing off of everything in the tank including the glass. continued to eat like a pig. once meds. began he shhowed light improvement in his mucus production but cintinued to flash. once i removed the guppies in 16 hours he seems 95percent better. his color is still a bit hazy,but the mucus is no longer thick like it was ond is noticably receeding.
as for meds, i immediately did a 50 percent waterchange and added a half dose of melafix. 10 hours later fed bloodworms soaked in garlic juice and added half dose of pimafix. next morning another 50 w/c with 1/2 dose pimafix because at this point wassuspicious of fugus or columnaris, so began treating for fungus whille considering treatment options for flexibacter. i also removed the guppies at this time. 22 hours later i returned home and he is acting 100percent normal. no more flashing and very active.
i now realize that certinly the guppies stressed him out, although no agression on anyone's side. he actd himelf for nearly a week with them and then symptoms began. this is why i think they brought something. shame on me for not q'ing them,but hindight is 20/20.
i suspect parasites but cannot see any at all. the cories are fine and never had symptoms.
is it poasible that stress from the guppies made him produce more mucus and it was this that made him uncomfortable, hence his flashing? seems odd that pretty much straightt awaynfrom their removal he showed vast improvement.
sorry for longwinded posts about theories, but ive never dealt with any diseases. i truely appreciate your time and help.

kind regards!

 

[WILDER]

Just take a look here as I want to rule it out.
http/www.angelfire.com/blues/fish_proble...IMEDISEASE.html

So the slime was clear looking.

 

[loraxchick]

i read the link on slime disease and the related costia parasite. it does sound similar in the thick mucus production. it never affected his gills(thank god) as i saw no rapid gill movement, nor any mucus on them. he also was not clamping. i will not rule this out! i will be taking some samples via cotton swab scrapes with me to work wed. night where i have access to a microscope and will check him out for the parasite. also a sample of water will be looked at (i have some very good micro experience and am lucky to have access to a decent microscope). i will let you know if and what i find and take appropriate treatment. it is just CRAZY to me how quickly he returned to himself once the guppies were removed- almost like someone flipped a switch. the mucus was gone overnight and he's back to his silly active self. but again, i will definitely check him out for those parasites and most likely use the salt treatment if i find anything!
thanks again.
cheers!

and my water quality is not or was not compromised. readings taken upon noticing his symptoms were 0-0-10 pH 7...i did a water change right away just to make it even better and started the meds.

sorry. yes the mucus was clear- well, as clear as thick mucusy slimecoat can be. more like translucent. it definately dulled his color a lot as i could definately see where it was thick, and spots where it was not so as these areas appeared normal color (which is why i originally worded it as either patches or spots). it was worse up by his head and under his ventrils(like where his armpits would be if he had them) and from top view, his scales behind and above his gills ( say you were looking at him on his right side, would be at about 10-11 o'clock) were raised a bit, but i equated this to the mucus or whatever it was i was seeing. it was NOT dropsy as it was only in a tiny area (like the size of a pencil eraser on each side up by the top of his head, yet still on the side of him (if that makes sense)...it has since vanished along with his slime and lethargy.

 

[WILDER]

Good luck with the tests.
It maybe good to check under a microscope to make sure a parasite not involved.
Has your ph changed.

 

[loraxchick]

pH hasnt changed at all. has always been right around 7 (maybe hovering to 6.8 but i have soft water). its just odd. he is 100% back to his old self!? so, a check under the scope and we'll go from there. thanks a bunch for all your help and ill let you know what i find on wed.
cheers!

 

[WILDER]

Ok.
Good Luck.