Sal's Salty Questions

[Salam]

Instead of bombarding you with random questions here and there and starting new threads I thought it would be best to have one post with my questions. I hope some of you experienced salties can pop in every now and then and help me out so I know what I am doing when I am ready for my marine tank in autumn.

When I ask questions they will be regarding a 340l / 90g tank (4ft x 1.5ft x 2ft).

First random question(s) - Are a sump and a skimmer necessary? I am planning on adding about 40Kg of live rock, just been to a shop that would give me a good deal for this amount. Would that be enough filtration or is a skimmer still needed? Would a skimmer be needed once the tank gets more stocked? If I don't need a skimmer, I don't really need a sump, do I? I am thinking that heaters can be hidden behind the rock, so there shouldn't be any unsightly equipment.

Thanks

 

[FishAreFriendsNotFood10]

Skimmer is always handy tbh it takes out all that Build up that is unseen, you'll look at your water and go "wow that's crystal clear" then run a skimmer for 2 weeks and almost throw up in disgust of what it pulls out I'd still recommend something like a deltec mce 600 hang on skimmer (but that's just my opinion )

On a sump note I've never had 1 but I believe they're not just about "hiding stuff" but also creating easier maintenance regimes on larger tanks, and are really good for nutrient export.
Sounds like your favouring the Berlin method with loadsa like rock and high flow rate though ?

 

[Salam]

Thanks Ryan. Yes, at the moment we are swaying more towards the Berlin method. Simple reasons are firstly cost of equipment - I know the tank will suck out our last pennies but hoping to save on equipment like skimmers (and I googled your suggestion and my eyes went ) - and secondly my husband is really worried about building a sump, drilling the tank et al so he'd prefer if we went without. I know you can buy ready sumps, but then again it is adding costs. Basically just trying to keep the initial cost as low as possible, the live rock is going to cost a bomb already and the initial filling with saltwater.

Ok, so in theory is it possible to start Berlin method, but add a skimmer and a sump later when we start stocking the tank more? At least that would spread the coast for those expensive items a little more. Would that be an option?

 

[GGtank]

You can add a protein skimmer at any point (once you get a place in your tank to put it/hang it on). Sump is a bit more tricky, you'll have a hard time trying to create one once your tank is all ready and stocked. Not everyone drills their tank to create a sump, some use overflow boxes! If you plan on using an overflow box (not as neat as having a tank drilled) then you can technically put that on later as well. What are you thinking of stocking? If you are stocking light, you have a large enough tank where you shouldn't NEED a skimmer, but I think everyone here would recommend one. There are lots of proteins/waste that stay in the water (particularly after feeds) that your live rock cannot deal with, and only a skimmer can remove. There are two types of positioning, hang-over the top skimmers (does not require sump but may require you to cut your tank lid) and the upright skimmers. I would STRONGLY recommend a skimmer for good water quality, tbh you will be spending money on nice corals and nice fish, there is no point gambling with water quality and losing all those things.

Sump benefits:
- Place to hide skimmer, heater, phosphate remover, carbon remover and any other equipment (reactors etc)
- Increase volume of your tank, creating more stable parameters
- Create a refugium : a place where copepods and other little critters can multiply without constantly being preyed upon, they will slowly end up in the main tank, feeding fish/corals/inverts
- Can run Cheato in the Sump to reduce nitrates
- Allows you to dose the tank without chemicals coming in direct contact with corals
- Easier access for cleaning equipment, (no need to be sticking the arm armpit deep into the maintank to get at stuff

Sump disadvantages:
- If poorly constructed can be a serious flood hazard if electricity gets cut (I have turned off the power on my tank several times and there is no way my sump can flood, you really just need to be careful in your design/purchase)
- You may have to drill tank unless you a) order a sump to be installed from the LFS or b) buy a tank that comes with a sump
- does require some minimal maintenance

I'd say spend the little extra for a good sump and skimmer and it will defo save you lots of money in the end. 340L is such a great tank size, i'd really want you to have stable parameters to create a really lovely reef.

(PS I kept a very healthy tank for 2 yrs without a sump, but I did have a skimmer, of the two, I think a skimmer is less 'optional' for stable parameters')

 

[FishAreFriendsNotFood10]

Have a look for second hand deltec mce 600's Salam Ive seem them floating around for like 100-140£ for a 340litre Tank it's a perfect hang on back skimmer, it even has a media compartment! Im sure ur aware by now of how much i rate this skimmer and .....You can add it later too

 

[Salam]

Thanks again, so helpful.

It really sounds like I should better invest into a sump and skimmer to have a better running reef. I would love both of them, but my husband is really put off by building one. Is there anywhere here a step by step guide on how to do it?

Will tell him about the overflow box, that might make it easier for him. Will also start looking for used skimmers on ebay. Let's hope a bargain pops up.

Stocking list will be close to this:

2 common clownfish
8 green chromis
1 flame angelfish
1 regal tang
1 yellow tang (spoke to the LFS yesterday, they said if I added both tangs together as juveniles they should be ok in the big tank)
1 royal gramma
1 prawn goby
1 blenny
2 dartfish
2 banggai cardinalfish
1 mandarinfish (to be added last)
1 starfish (also to be added when mature tank)

Oh, and yesterday I saw those funny eels poking out of the sand, forgot the full name. Do you know which ones I mean? Would love to have them too

 

[Salam]

Ok, here is the next question:

The shop I went to yesterday had Fiji rock for £13 per kilo and 'general' live rock for £11 per kilo. Is there any difference apart from the price? Is the Fiji one better?

 

[FishAreFriendsNotFood10]

fiji is the "premium" grade live rock .... My Lfs only has fiji live rock so im stocked up on that in my tank, its "said" to me be more pourous and plate like, however if you google the topic you'll find arguements on every page lol

 

[GGtank]

Thanks again, so helpful.

It really sounds like I should better invest into a sump and skimmer to have a better running reef. I would love both of them, but my husband is really put off by building one. Is there anywhere here a step by step guide on how to do it?

Will tell him about the overflow box, that might make it easier for him. Will also start looking for used skimmers on ebay. Let's hope a bargain pops up.

Stocking list will be close to this:

2 common clownfish
8 green chromis
1 flame angelfish
1 regal tang
1 yellow tang (spoke to the LFS yesterday, they said if I added both tangs together as juveniles they should be ok in the big tank)
1 royal gramma
1 prawn goby
1 blenny
2 dartfish
2 banggai cardinalfish
1 mandarinfish (to be added last)
1 starfish (also to be added when mature tank)

Oh, and yesterday I saw those funny eels poking out of the sand, forgot the full name. Do you know which ones I mean? Would love to have them too

You mean the garden eels??? Taenioconger hassi, they need a very very peacful aquarium to do well and at least 6-8 inches of sand.

Guide to creating a sump:
There's lots on the web, some are good, others not so great lol. Here are some:

Vid guide:
http/www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxnugJGiT3o

Sump basics
http/www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html

Great DIY overflow (if you don't want to drill the tank)
http/reefbuilders.com/forums/diy-projects/5497-diy-overflow-sump.html

Drilling
http/www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=912378

 

[Salam]

Thanks for the sump video link and other links, will show them to him later

Yes, it's the garden eels. Can I have them if I give them a dedicated quiet area or do I have too many territorial fish in there?

 

[ainsy]

I wouldn't consider the garden eel - they won't thrive in an aquarium (if you can even find them for sale in this country!)

Please also reconsider the tangs - they are a free swimming fish that like a lot of horizontal space to dart along. Even the smaller ones like the regal & yellow need a tank longer than 4 foot (think 6 foot min!). Whilst many will tell you that they will be ok with less the rarely do well long term.

I also don't think that your mandarin will survive even if added last to a mature tank - they are very peaceful slow moving fish & your tank will be too crowded and boisterous for it.

Sorry if this ruins your plans - just want to stop you from making some costly mistakes.

 

[Salam]

No, not ruining my plans. I appreciate any advice and I will go with advice given here, hence I am asking so many questions beforehand so I know I am going to do it right.

Well, the eels were for sale in the shop, but if you say they won't thrive I will leave them.

Regarding the tangs - my son would really love to have a Dory (I know... ), could I just have the blue one then and ditch the yellow tang?

Will also reconsider the mandarin. Shame, but I don't want to harm any fish.

 

[ainsy]

I understand the Family Wish List Problem! Had it myself many times!

People do regularly keep them in 4ft tanks BUT be aware that their maximum size is 12" which wouldn't give it much swimming room & would mean rehoming it. You also need to know that tangs in general can be a magnet for ich/whitespot when stressed.

My other advice to you would be to spend as much as you can afford on a good skimmer - you won't regret it & they really help when you are new to marine keeping (personally I would not consider having a tank without one - but others vary in this view!)

Sumps can be helpful - as mentioned they keep other equipment out of the tank & increase your total water volume which is always a good thing. The simplest & cheapest way to achieve this is with an overflow box.

If you want to try & keep costs down then search for keepers that are breaking down their tanks to get cheaper live rock or if you are prepared to wait a little bit longer & save any more get some 'reef bones' which is essentially dead live rock. It will become live again after some time in your tank.

 

[Salam]

Thanks again, ainsy! Very helpful.

Yes, I suppose we will save up more and get a sump via overflowbox and a skimmer. It makes sense.

Real shame about the tang, but I wouldn't like having an ich outbreak in my tank and I want 'Dory' to be happy. So if 4ft isn't enough I will see if I can convince my son to choose another pretty, but compatible fish.

Just a possibly very random thought. If things go well with the big tank and I keep marine successfully for let's say a couple of years - Would it be an option having a smaller marine tank with seahorses and eels only? Both are on our wishlist, but we know that they wouldn't go in the big tank. Really only for the future as a progression.

 

[SaltNoob]

Stocking list will be close to this:

2 common clownfish
8 green chromis
1 flame angelfish
1 regal tang
1 yellow tang (spoke to the LFS yesterday, they said if I added both tangs together as juveniles they should be ok in the big tank)
1 royal gramma
1 prawn goby
1 blenny
2 dartfish
2 banggai cardinalfish
1 mandarinfish (to be added last)
1 starfish (also to be added when mature tank)

Oh, and yesterday I saw those funny eels poking out of the sand, forgot the full name. Do you know which ones I mean? Would love to have them too

This looks like so much fun! The chromis are usually kept in odd numbers. I can't wait to see them schooling together!

-Tyler