Rising Ph

[Egmel]

During the last week or so of my fishless cycle my pH was stable around 7.0 which I was really happy with as our tap water can be around 8.8 at times I have a piece of Mopani wood to help keep the pH around this level.

I did regular large water changes during the cycle to help keep the nitrites on a manageable scale and to reduce the onset of algae from too higher nitrates. These changes would raise the pH slightly (maybe to 7.6 max) but but never anything too startling.

Then came the fish...
On Saturday we did the end-of-cycling water-change to get the Nitrates down to ~20ppm (ammonia and Nitrites were already at 0ppm so these weren't of any issue) and the pH went to about 7.4, about the same as the water the guppies we bought were in (sheer fluke) and considerably higher than that which the Pitbull Plecs were in (which was about 6 ), both fish waters tested very high on the nitrate scale.

We did a very slow acclimatisation process for the plecs, taking over 2 hours adding 1/2 an espresso cup of tank water every 10 mins until the water in their bag matched that of our tank. We did a similar thing for the guppies but did a full espresso cup every 10 mins for about 2 hrs. We then netted across the fish so that there was minimal contamination from their bags to our tank.

I have been monitoring the water levels carefully and the pH seems to be rising and this morning was about 7.8 The only other things that have been added to the tank were food (live daphnia, flakes, tetra prima(?) granules, cucumber and algae wafers, obviously not all at the same time!) so I can't think why the pH would be rising.

Ammonia and NitrIte are both at 0ppm
Nitrate is between 20 + 40ppm

So 3 questions.
Firstly - can anyone think of a reason why the pH might be rising?
Secondly - is this going to be a problem, I know the guppies will be perfectly happy but at what point will it become a problem for my plecs, especially since they came from such basic water in the shop. The PC article says they are happy up to 7.6, as they are still settling in I'm not sure if they are unhappy or just shy. 2 of them are raising their dorsal fin on a regular basis which I've been told is a good sign, the other one is less inclined to do so.
Thirdly - If it's going to be a problem what can I do about it?

Cheers in advance for the help guys, sorry if this has been asked before but pH is too short to search for, I tried various other terms with no joy

 

[BigIan]

altering the ph of your water is very tricky buisness....

your tank water will eventually reset to the ph of your tap water as the effects of the bog wood ect wear off.
your guppys should be fine, and aslong as the chage is very gradual, the plecs should be able to handle the ph change, but i suggest that when you look into buying more fish you look for some that prefer the higher ph

 

[Miss Wiggle]

unless you want to continually treat the water, you can buy chemicals that apparently will 'set' your ph to a certain level, called proper ph. If you really wanted to keep it lower cos of the fish you want to keep you could consider treating with that but I expect you'd always have to carry on using it.

 

[ox5477]

The tank water's pH will rise because of the ammonia from the fish. Yes the filter bacteria process' the ammonia seemingly as it is produced to not show up on your chem test but it is still in the water for a time being and with ammonia being a base, it will cause your water to become more basic (higher pH) it could continue to rise and rise even above your tap pH if you let the tank just sit and sit and sit, but I doubt the fish would last that long without a water change. Anyways, either just keep using the woods to try to buffer the pH down or can go the dangerous route (which I use sometimes) and use the chemicals to lower the pH.

Note: A pH of 6.5 to 7.5 is a good general pH range for most fish. Unless specified that the fish is very intolerant of different tank conditions, most fish can survive in this range even if they would prefer 6.5 or 7.5 and your tank is actually the other.

 

[Egmel]

Cheers for the feedback, I may have to rethink the stocking if that's the case, we were going to add some more guppies this weekend and some panda cories (I know, not the best for a new tank but they're so cute and one of the few smaller cories our LFS stocks) the weekend after (providing the ammonia and nitrite levels were ok)

I might ask the LFS to test their Panda water, they've been there contentedly for 3 weeks already so it'll be 5 by the time we look into getting them, you never know they might be ok in the higher pH.

The other thing I ought to do is see what happens to de-cholorinated tap water which is left to age, I wouldn't be surprised if the pH changes of its own accord!

I don't really want to start messing with the pH using stabilisers, I've heard that not only can they be tricky but also that they can 'break down' after a certain level which can cause a rapid pH change which would be even worse for the fish.

Maybe I should look into a bog wood eating panaque which would force me to replace the bog wood on a more regular basis I think they may all be too big for my tank though

I'll watch it carefully over the next few days and see what it does, it's a new tank after all.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Cheers for the feedback, I may have to rethink the stocking if that's the case, we were going to add some more guppies this weekend and some panda cories (I know, not the best for a new tank but they're so cute and one of the few smaller cories our LFS stocks) the weekend after (providing the ammonia and nitrite levels were ok)

I might ask the LFS to test their Panda water, they've been there contentedly for 3 weeks already so it'll be 5 by the time we look into getting them, you never know they might be ok in the higher pH.

The other thing I ought to do is see what happens to de-cholorinated tap water which is left to age, I wouldn't be surprised if the pH changes of its own accord!

I don't really want to start messing with the pH using stabilisers, I've heard that not only can they be tricky but also that they can 'break down' after a certain level which can cause a rapid pH change which would be even worse for the fish.

Maybe I should look into a bog wood eating panaque which would force me to replace the bog wood on a more regular basis I think they may all be too big for my tank though

I'll watch it carefully over the next few days and see what it does, it's a new tank after all.

I'd ask the lfs to reserve and hold onto the panda's for you if you want them that badly. They can be hard to keep alive even in a mature set up, even people like Inchworm (the cory expert IMO) keep panda's by themselves cos they're so sensitive.

Yeah there can be issues with stabilisers, personally I wouldn't use them but a lot of people do so thought I'd mention it in case you didn't know the existed. Down to you to research and make an informed choice!

I doubt if a panaque will make you replace your bogwood regularly enough. I've had a royal for months and it's not made a dint in it, although his poops are like sawdust and really hard to vac up!

 

[BigIan]

Cheers for the feedback, I may have to rethink the stocking if that's the case, we were going to add some more guppies this weekend and some panda cories (I know, not the best for a new tank but they're so cute and one of the few smaller cories our LFS stocks) the weekend after (providing the ammonia and nitrite levels were ok)

Dont add pandas every single person i know who`s added them in a tank less than 6 months old has had dead pandas

The other thing I ought to do is see what happens to de-cholorinated tap water which is left to age, I wouldn't be surprised if the pH changes of its own accord!

the water will stagnate unless you stick something in there to keep the water moving, plus in a bucket its nothing like a brand new tank situation with substrate, plants, fish emmiting co2 and nitrate sending the ph down and plants emmiting o2 and absorbing co2 sending the ph up.

I don't really want to start messing with the pH using stabilisers, I've heard that not only can they be tricky but also that they can 'break down' after a certain level which can cause a rapid pH change which would be even worse for the fish.
yep ph additives are very very bad!!!

Maybe I should look into a bog wood eating panaque which would force me to replace the bog wood on a more regular basis I think they may all be too big for my tank though
the panaqe will grow to roughly 8 inches there are dwarf varietys but they are rather hard to find. plus the panque won`t eat the wood that fast


I'll watch it carefully over the next few days and see what it does, it's a new tank after all.
thats the best idea, i`d leave the tank as it is for a few weeks before adding any new fish ect and just monitor the fish you have now

 

[Egmel]

I'd ask the lfs to reserve and hold onto the panda's for you if you want them that badly. They can be hard to keep alive even in a mature set up, even people like Inchworm (the cory expert IMO) keep panda's by themselves cos they're so sensitive.

I did ask him whether they were likely still to be there in few weeks and he was fairly certain they would be.

I don't know what sort of fish turn over they get, I don't think it's that high as there always seems to be similar stock. To be honest, although they are an amazing LFS with an entire room full of fish tanks from floor to ceiling, each individually filtered, their labeling is awful! The easiest way to find what you're looking for is to ask the guy. Also I mean 'the Guy' there is only one, he looks after all the tropical fish, while the owner deals with the marine, cold water and birds!

However I think you're right, maybe I should call them and see if we can reserve them, we can pay a deposit when we pick up the new guppies on Sat. It did amaze me how cheap they were only £3.95 each when the others he had were all £5+ though some of the others were rarer species and larger.

 

[BigIan]

The tank water's pH will rise because of the ammonia from the fish. Yes the filter bacteria process' the ammonia seemingly as it is produced to not show up on your chem test but it is still in the water for a time being and with ammonia being a base, it will cause your water to become more basic (higher pH) it could continue to rise and rise even above your tap pH if you let the tank just sit and sit and sit, but I doubt the fish would last that long without a water change. Anyways, either just keep using the woods to try to buffer the pH down or can go the dangerous route (which I use sometimes) and use the chemicals to lower the pH.

Note: A pH of 6.5 to 7.5 is a good general pH range for most fish. Unless specified that the fish is very intolerant of different tank conditions, most fish can survive in this range even if they would prefer 6.5 or 7.5 and your tank is actually the other.

thats rubbish as soon as the ammonia is processed it would then become nitrite and nitrate both of wich are acidic. and would counteract the ammonia,
and the culmulative effect wouldn`t be very severe as its processed very quickly...

 

[Egmel]

Dont add pandas every single person i know who`s added them in a tank less than 6 months old has had dead pandas

ok.

the water will stagnate unless you stick something in there to keep the water moving, plus in a bucket its nothing like a brand new tank situation with substrate, plants, fish emmiting co2 and nitrate sending the ph down and plants emmiting o2 and absorbing co2 sending the ph up.

I was talking about overnight, our tap water is foul, I often wonder if it would be worth running it through a filter before putting it in the fish tank, that's what we do before we drink it otherwise it tastes like TCP if it's left for any time. Would a normal drinking water filter be ok for fish, if not I have a special filter that I use to get near-pure water for my contact lenses.

thats the best idea, i`d leave the tank as it is for a few weeks before adding any new fish ect and just monitor the fish you have now

Now to persuade the b/f that it's the thing to do. If the fish shop had been open yesterday I think he would have been back there to get more fish. He thinks adding 4 more guppies would be too little and wanted to get the pandas at the same time. (we currently have 4 guppies and 3 diddy plecs )

I think we may try the guppies next weekend if the pH stabilises towards the end of the week. Not because I don't trust your advice but because I think the guppies we currently have would be happier with more friends.

 

[BigIan]

a simple carbon block filter should be effective at purifying your water enough, and may well even lower your ph. as it will remove alot of the buffering capacity of the water. (lower the hardness)


plus panda corys arent that hard to come across they are pretty common.

i`d wait 2 weeks before adding more bioload for the filter just to play it safe , if you do add more fish monitor the ammonia levels ect carefully

 

[Egmel]

a simple carbon block filter should be effective at purifying your water enough, and may well even lower your ph. as it will remove alot of the buffering capacity of the water. (lower the hardness)

cool, might give that a go then, if the water's not good enough for me then I don't see why my fish should have to put up with it

i`d wait 2 weeks before adding more bioload for the filter just to play it safe , if you do add more fish monitor the ammonia levels ect carefully

The filter was processing 4ppm of ammonia to 0ppm of ammonia/nitrites in under 12 hours at the end of cycling. We would have stocked more heavily but it's the first tank we've done so wanted to make sure we didn't have any freaky stuff in the water we couldn't test for so just got a small load.

I haven't seen any ammonia or nitrates since we added the fish on Sat and I've been testing at least every 12 hours (and will continue to test regularly until I'm happy that everything is ticking along nicely). I don't think that the ammonia will be an issue, although I realise there may be a mini-cycle whenever the bio-load is increased.

I should be getting some MTS through the post in the next couple of days (to help turn the sand substrate and to leave 'presents' for my plant roots ) so I'll see what happens to the levels when I add them, I don't think they have a large bioload but they will definitely add something.

 

[BigIan]

the snails will add no bio load at all really. but the bacteria built up during the fishless cycle will have died off, and only a large enough colony to deal with the bioload of the tank now. so when you go to add more fish do it slowly only a couple at a time with a decent interval inbetween

 

[Egmel]

the snails will add no bio load at all really. but the bacteria built up during the fishless cycle will have died off, and only a large enough colony to deal with the bioload of the tank now. so when you go to add more fish do it slowly only a couple at a time with a decent interval inbetween

Ok, I thought that might be the case. How much of a spike could I expect to see if I added 4 guppies, it would effectively be increasing the bio-load by about 50%, would that be too much?

 

[dthoffsett]

If your filter allows you to add media, you could try adding peat. It should help w/the ph a little more than the bogwood.