Returning To Fish Keeping- I Just Want A Small Pretty Peaceful Tank Th

[ButterflyEl]

Hello! I've just come across your forum and am now obsessed!

I had a very large tropical fish tank quite a few years ago with all manner of things (from your regular guppies to crayfish and frogs (the crayfish (although the person that gave it to me said it was a lobster but I find it hard to believe a lobster could be so small and sold in a petshop in the UK!) was what eventually killed everything and put an end to my fish keeping days (I was given the crayfish as a present and it escaped a couple times then promptly ate most of the fish, destroyed the plants then died killing the last remaining fish.. never again ). I always had problems with supposedly peaceful community, small fish growing massive, getting very aggressive and then attacking all the other fish and living for years and years and years (so apparently very healthy!) all the while killing everything else (worst offenders- angel fish, sailfins, pakistani loaches, gouramis).
I've also kept a range of cold water fish over the years including your regular goldfish and kois.

Anyway I now have a new tank- a fluval chi and it's rather beautiful (it's like a water feature even without the fish). It's a 25 litre (4.5 gallons). Alright now I admit, it's been some time since I had a fishtank and I brought it on impulse and it looked a lot bigger in the shop (it was one of the biggest in there which shocks me now as to how small the others were!) and it didn't really register what size it is till I got it home. Anyway it doesn't matter too much because I do only want simple, pretty, easy to keep peaceful fish (and space is going to be limited when I move). I don't even want anything as complex as a gourami this time around

I did consider just putting a siamese fighter/betta in there but in the past they always died for apparently no reason. I know they're supposed to be easy to keep but I've just always had them die on me very quickly so I'm not willing to try them again!

So I set it up (de-cholrinated the water), added some plants, got a sand substrate, added stress zyme to get the filter going and let it run for a couple days. I then brought 5 neons and 5 guppies (three regular, 2 endlers). I added a dose of metafix to the water after I added the fish because from my past experience this tends to massively reduce diseases being introduced to the tank.

One of the neons as it floated out the bag sort of fell out the water.. I've never seen anything like it. It swam out fine then literally within about 2 minutes just fell like a stone to the bottom of the tank dead. Everything else seems fine though. I assume it's a problem with the fish rather than the tank since it happened so fast).

I currently don't have a heater in there since the tank is already at 20- 22 degrees celcius (I have kept a close eye on it over the past couple days and it really does stay in that range even over night). When it gets to the colder months I will get a heater for it though.

Anyway I was thinking I'd get another 5 neons to make a better shoal.

Wow this is way longer than I meant it to be!
TL;DR summary:

I have a 25 litre planted tank with sand substrate, a couple of real plants of differing heights, and very good aeration from the filter (although there is quite a current but nothing the guppies or neons seem to be affected by). It has no lid.

I currently have:
4 neon tetras
5 guppies

I was thinking of getting another 5 neons and maybe 1 or 2 more guppies (thought I'd look out for any particularly striking ones). Would I be okay with this?

I would like something a little bit different in there though- something like a shrimp or crab. Ideally I'd love a frog again but since my tank has no lid that's a definite no. I've never kept shrimps mainly as I've always found them a bit dull/dirty looking so well if there is anything else anyone can think of I'd like to hear it (so long as it's not a snail ). Oh and please don't suggest puffer fish. I've never managed to keep one of those alive.. reading around this place sounds like I kept getting sold brackish puffer fish as freshwater

I did see in my lfs freshwater clams for sale which I got very excited about but managed not to buy and to research first. After reading up on here it doesn't look so good- basically impossible to feed and slowly die then when they do die they kill everything else right? I really would love to keep a clam tbh but the idea of them slowly starving to death is so upsetting I wouldn't try unless I got some pretty good advice/indication that I could make it work.

 

[sebn]

Hi ButterflyEl,

I'm a bit of a newbie myself but im afraid that you are well overstocked for a tank of that size. The general consensus (from what i can gather) is that a 25l isnt really big enough to keep any kind of fish in, and people generally recommend keeping shrimp/snails in a tank with such a small volume. I have heard some people say that some of the micro species are suitable but neons and guppies need a much bigger space.

More importantly though, you dont mention that you have cycled the tank in any way, this is where you build up the bacteria in the filter over a period of time (sometimes upto 2 months) without fish by feeding it with an ammonia source. The bacteria in the filter then processes the waste that the fish produce making the water safe for them. If you havent done this then you fish are currently swimming about in their waste and are being slowly poisoned. I urge you to visit this link http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/277264-beginners-resource-center/ and read all the inforation about cycling the tank.

Dont feel bad though, many many people start off in the same way as you, but we all learn from our mistakes and there are lots of people who are much more experienced than me on here that i am sure will be able to help you out.

Seb

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

Hi Butterfly! Welcome to the forum

I agree with what Seb has said 100%. You've fallen into a very common trap and you'll find that members on the forum are going to tell you to make some changes to your tank. Please don't be offended or overwhelmed, most of us have been in your shoes before.

The easiest thing for you to do, which isn't very nice I know, would be to take your fish back to the shop and do a Fishless Cycle (LINK). I know that doesn't sound very fun but a Fish-IN cycle is a total pain in the backside lol - and you may end up losing your fish because you have too many fish in the tank so keeping the ammonia and nitrite down (you can read about the Nitrogen Cycle HERE for more info) is going to be difficult and you'll be testing and changing the water every day for at least 6 weeks.

The second thing is you really must get a heater in your tank as you have tropical fish that are meant to live at 25 degrees C.

The last thing is choosing the right fish for your tank. You could have a really pretty tank but are VERY limited as to what can live in there.

I'd suggest:
1 betta, some shrimp or an apple snail
OR
2 Sparkling Gourami, some shrimp or an apple snail

These fish could give you a really nice set up and if you cycle the tank properly you shouldn't have a problem keeping the betta alive.

 

[SamLovesCorys]

+1 For the sparkling Gourami, they are awesome!

 

[ButterflyEl]

Thanks for the feedback guys!

Ahh I must admit it wasn't exactly the response I was hoping for I hope this doesn't sound defensive! Just trying to understand more

I thought stress zyme (which has biological enzymes/beneficial bacteria in) was enough and so I could skip the weeks of tank cycling? How about if I borrowed a bit of someone elses filter pad and put it in my tank? Can I just float it in the tank? Would it help? I can't really get back to the pet shop till next week at best so I'm kinda keen to make it work with these!

Is 5 guppies and 4 neons really too much for a 25 litre tank? The information on the tank says it's 2 litres to 1 cm of fish (minus the tail). So I can have 12 cms of fish? Neons only get to max 1cm don't they (minus tail) and endlers don't get much bigger do they? And regular guppies about 2? Thinking about it I can see how more of anything isn't a good idea though.

Again I thought guppies and neons were okay at 20-22? I thought it was the lower end? I will invest in a heater though if that's better. I might have an old one laying about although it is a heater for a MUCH bigger tank. Might sound totally stupid but can I use that just really turned down?

I was planning to do a 20% water change once a week although I can see it might make sense to do it more frequently for the first few weeks. Certainly don't mind doing that.

I will invest in water testing kit and start checking that out(I can get to a petshop that sells equipment but not fish tomorrow).

Thanks again guys and sorry for being a newbie!

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

Lol don't worry about it, I think everyone on here hates "breaking the news" - it's generally agreed around here that products claiming to have beneficial bacteria are totally useless in that regard. Getting some media from another tank is a brilliant idea. You will need to cut it to the shape that will fit inside your own filter. You can chop it up and squeeze it in there any-whicha-way

The thing about the size of your fish is that they will get bigger. Neon tetras get to 2.5cm each and guppies will get to 6cm (according to very trusted website "SeriouslyFish") and you should stock your tank based on their adult size and you've got 40cm of fish there. The cm/L rule isn't a hard and fast rule as it depends on the level of filtration, activity levels of the fish and where they occupy the tank. But you are definetley overstocked, plus you may have said, but do you have only male guppies? As if you've got a mix you'll be overflowing with fry in no time! A group of male endlers would be fine in there though

Heater wise I reccomend you get a 25-50w heater for your tank. A bigger one will not olny take up a lot of space in the tank (and needs to be fully submerged and placed at an angle) but if it ever malfunctions it'll cook your tank in no time.

Regarding test kits, don't get the test strips or tablet based tests. Go for a liquid based kit, API is a good one and it'll cost you about £25 but will last you AGES.

Hope this helps! Good luck and please keep us up to date on how you get on. Feel free to ask as many questions as you need to

 

[fluttermoth]

Thanks for the feedback guys!

Ahh I must admit it wasn't exactly the response I was hoping for I hope this doesn't sound defensive! Just trying to understand more

I thought stress zyme (which has biological enzymes/beneficial bacteria in) was enough and so I could skip the weeks of tank cycling? How about if I borrowed a bit of someone elses filter pad and put it in my tank? Can I just float it in the tank? Would it help? I can't really get back to the pet shop till next week at best so I'm kinda keen to make it work with these!

Although there may be some biological starters that do work (there are arguments going back and forward on this), stresszyme isn't one of them. A bit of mature media would very definitely help, but you'd need to fit it into your filter somehow; the bacteria cling on quite strongly and won't float or move about through the water.

Is 5 guppies and 4 neons really too much for a 25 litre tank? The information on the tank says it's 2 litres to 1 cm of fish (minus the tail). So I can have 12 cms of fish? Neons only get to max 1cm don't they (minus tail) and endlers don't get much bigger do they? And regular guppies about 2? Thinking about it I can see how more of anything isn't a good idea though.

Neons get to an inch, not a cm; so that's 2.5 cms for each neon, and the same for male guppies; females are even larger.

Again I thought guppies and neons were okay at 20-22? I thought it was the lower end? I will invest in a heater though if that's better. I might have an old one laying about although it is a heater for a MUCH bigger tank. Might sound totally stupid but can I use that just really turned down?

You can't turn a larger heater down; they have a thermostat that turns the heater on and off at the temperature they're set to. A large heater in a small tank will just come on and switch off more frequently. You can use it, but a smaller one would be better. 22°F really is a bit on the cold side, despite what it says on various websites.

I was planning to do a 20% water change once a week although I can see it might make sense to do it more frequently for the first few weeks. Certainly don't mind doing that.

As your tank isn't cycled, and you don't have test kits yet, you'll need to daily water changes, and as you can't monitor the ammonia or nitrite levels, they should be very big. Basically, drain the tank right down, leaving just enough water for the fish to swim upright, before refilling (warmed, dechlorinated water, of course!).

I will invest in water testing kit and start checking that out(I can get to a petshop that sells equipment but not fish tomorrow).

That would be great

Thanks again guys and sorry for being a newbie!

It's ok, we're used to it

 

[manofish123]

Congratulations on your decision to get back in the fish business and I think you'll like the Fluval. Not having alot of space myself I settled for 6 Gal Fluval Edge cube. (Ok - I then went and bought a 9 gallon, but thats it - ha )
I'd just like to say as a beginner myself, the council you've received here is going to give you the best results. I was fortunate to have ran onto this site before I bought fish and glad I did. My Fluval took right at 21 days to cycle and has been prestine ever since. I went with a Betta, several small neons and a ghost shrimp. They all are compatible so far and love the Fluval.
Would restate that in my humble opinion the only good water conditioner is Prime. Dont let the local fish mart talk you into alot of other stuff that will just confuse the issue and distort any hope of a consistant cycling process.
The 9 gallon took 23 days and I'v stocked it with 2 emblers, couple of neons, an oto and a ghost shrimp. This is probably on the high end but I stay on top of my water changes and cleaning. Have put live plants in both tanks and have had good results keeping the lights on for about 8 hours a day.
Good luck with your new venture and read all you can about cycling, it will be a definate help to your outcome and much healthier fish ...

 

[Bugdozer]

Would restate that in my humble opinion the only good water conditioner is Prime.

Utter nonsense, there are several other water conditioners that do exactly the same as Prime, it just happens to be the most cost efficient per amount of conditioner needed because it's the most concentrated (also, incidentally, making it the easiest to get the dosage wrong.)

Everybody on this forum promotes Prime for one of two reasons: one, it's cheap, two, because everybody else uses it.
I have yet to see evidence of anyone's fish snuffing it from the wrong brand of water conditioner being used.

 

[manofish123]

Seems Buggy has a problem with my comment on Prime. First of all I said "in my opinion". With all the positive comments and reviews on here about it, not to mention my own experience and determination that you do get "more" for your money because it is indeed concentrated, why use anything else ? Unless of course, you cant tell the difference between a ml and L - then its "utterly crazy" to use anything.

 

[Moby-Krib]

Just a statement on starters, as this could work but .
If any were to still be viable you would have bought, received, refrigerated, it would then still have a definite use by date.

I feel this is a useful in the future idea that hasn't been as yet realized on a mass production level.

 

[Moby-Krib]

Would restate that in my humble opinion the only good water conditioner is Prime.

Utter nonsense, there are several other water conditioners that do exactly the same as Prime, it just happens to be the most cost efficient per amount of conditioner needed because it's the most concentrated (also, incidentally, making it the easiest to get the dosage wrong.)

Everybody on this forum promotes Prime for one of two reasons: one, it's cheap, two, because everybody else uses it.
I have yet to see evidence of anyone's fish snuffing it from the wrong brand of water conditioner being used.

Agreed. I use it simply because I was refereed to and have had great results. Yet many have similar if not exact compassion in success ratio with others.
I'm in the prime camp but not actively fighting the "best in class war"!!
however I would fight the dose wrong statement. unless you were to be trying to be so perfect in dosing as to get it too low...
over is nothing bad, and cost makes this a non issue.
I can provide you with a break down to the 1/4 gallon dosage if you like the math is easy.Regulating that is not.

yet a fish snuffed, from bad conditioner is as far as I see, non existent

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

Would restate that in my humble opinion the only good water conditioner is Prime.

Utter nonsense, there are several other water conditioners that do exactly the same as Prime, it just happens to be the most cost efficient per amount of conditioner needed because it's the most concentrated (also, incidentally, making it the easiest to get the dosage wrong.)

Everybody on this forum promotes Prime for one of two reasons: one, it's cheap, two, because everybody else uses it.
I have yet to see evidence of anyone's fish snuffing it from the wrong brand of water conditioner being used.

From this post on the conversation has gone way off topic. The mods have frequently reminded us to avoid getting in to these kinds of discussions on new tank threads. They aren't helpful to the OP and just cause confusion.

 

[colleen0309]

Prime is a dechlorinator, not a biological bacteria. Prime dechlorinates your water. It also has the benefit of binding ammonia and nitrite for a short period of time. If you find that the biological boosters(like stresszyme) work for you, then by all means, use it. Without a test kit, you won't know what is going on with your water.You need a liquid test kit. I use API Master Kit, myself. You NEED a heater. With a small tank, you will get a wide range of temperature in your tank without one. And last of all, neons are not good in a new set up. If you want neons, wait till your tank has been stable for a few months. And feel free to ask as many questions as you like. We will help all we can.

 

[Bugdozer]

Seems Buggy has a problem with my comment on Prime. First of all I said "in my opinion". With all the positive comments and reviews on here about it, not to mention my own experience and determination that you do get "more" for your money because it is indeed concentrated, why use anything else ? Unless of course, you cant tell the difference between a ml and L - then its "utterly crazy" to use anything.

I have a problem because of your wording, in particular the use of the word "only" which implies that all other water conditioners are in some way deficient. If you'd said "in my opinion Prime is the best water conditioner" or "Prime is very good" etc. then I would not pass comment. However, you sing the praises of Prime by trashing the alternatives.
Secondly, regarding the appropriateness of this tangent to the thread, it IS relevant because the OP is a newbie who is likely to take information given at face value as they have not been on the board long enough to discover all the various opinions. I felt it important, in this context, to inform them that most water conditioners that are not Prime are usually perfectly satisfactory in terms of making the water safe for fish to live in.