Question About Water Ph And Ammonia

[Dark Wolf]

Hi, So basically i've had cold water fish for around 3 years, and recently bought a much bigger tank for them all to go, so i now have 3 spare tanks and decided to take the plunge for tropical fish. Now i'm only using a very small tank (around 15 litres), and so only plan to get around 3 or 4 tropical fish, maybe moving to one of the bigger tanks i have in the future.

Anyway, I am doing a fishless cycles with the tank and am trying to get my hands on some ammonia. I'm slightly confused as to what i'm supposed to be getting, i keep reading get pure ammonia, but the only stuff i can find (i live in the UK) is Ammonia that contains water, and ammonia concentrate of 9.5%. Is this the right stuff? As i'd interpret pure to mean 100%

As for the pH problem, i bough a liquid master test kit, and all other levels of tap water are close to none barring a very slight amount of nitrite. But my pH is up at 8.5 which is surely far too much for all tropical fish (which aren't marine). So i'm just wondering what's the best thing to do to get the pH down to 7?

Sorry about the long post (and probably very newb questions)

 

[Aphotic Phoenix]

In the UK you'll only find diluted Ammonia which is fine. When we say "pure" ammonia we mean ammonia that doesn't have other chemicals like dyes, surfactants or other cleaning chemicals in it... shake the bottle and if it foams don't buy it because that indicates the presence of other chems.

A pH of 8.5 is pretty high but there are a few species that love hard water, and most species can live in hard water although they may not be able to breed. Mollies, Endler's Livebearers, and African Cichlids are a few examples of fish that do well in high pH situations.

There are ways to reduce the pH/hardness of your tap, but that can become expensive and require you to commit to maintaining those levels for as long as you own the tank. Using remineralized RO/DI water is an example. I would recommend deciding on such things later on after you have determined how committed you want to be to the hobby.

 

[rdd1952]

As mentioned, by pure ammonia, we mean water and ammonia with no detergents, surfactants, dyes or perfumes (chleating agents are ok). If I'm not mistaken, true "pure" ammonia is actually a gas.

What is the pH in you cold water tanks and from the tap? If it's considerably lower, then you probably have something in the tank that is pushing it up. Certain rocks and substrates are made to raise and buffer pH.

Just a side note. You said you were going to start with a small tank and maybe go to a bigger one later. If you are starting small because it will be easier, you may want to reconsider. It's actually much easier to maintain a large tank than a small one. It will stay much more stable. And 15L (about 4 gallon) is really only big enough for something like betta or maybe a 2 or 3 endlers.

 

[Lorna]

Hi,

I had the same problem with my PH, it too was 8.5. Since your tank is going to be small, what I suggest you do what I did with my 125ltr that is fill it up with mineral water with a lower PH. Tesco brand have water from Ashbeck in Cumbria and the PH of this is low. My tank is now stable at 7.4. it costs about 85p for 5 ltrs.

Rdd1952 is correct in researching what type of rocks and substrate you have in your tank as this can play a big part in PH levels

If you are going to use mineral water I suggest that you complete your fishless cycle then change the existing water with mineral water by doing water changes with it until you get the PH stable and lower. Don't change too much of the water at once as I have been told that this may stunt or kill the bacteria in your filter as it is different water and has different minerals in it.

 

[Dark Wolf]

From my tap the pH is 8.5pH, the water in my cold water fish tank is around 8.1pH, but they seem to be fine in it, a couple of them are nearly 5 years old now. So it's definitely a high pH from the tap. Does pH affect tropical fish a lot more than it does cold water fish?

I hadn't thought about using bottled water, could look into it. Actually as i live in the country, we have a spring in my village, which has running water, or would people suggest steering away from that idea, as it could have lots of other nasties in it.

I've read that smaller tanks are harder work than bigger ones to maintain, but i'm not looking to have lots and lots of them, because as mentioned earlier, i live in the countryside, and sometimes (only occassionally though) we can get power cuts that last all night, and i'd hate to wake up next morning with a tank full of dead fish. Also this smaller tank has a light built in, and so means that i don't have to go out and buy one

 

[Dark Wolf]

Oh and i haven't actually started the cycle yet, getting ammonia tomorrow, now that i know it's the right stuff. So if people do think that the pH is too high, and wouldn't suggest using water from the spring, should i empty out the water that's in already and start the cycle with bottled water?

 

[rdd1952]

As Lorna mentioned, I think I would just cycle with tap water. I don't think it will hurt anything. When you do he large water change after you have finished, you can refill with bottled water to lower the pH. Just keep in mind that with bottled water or RO water, you will have to add minerals back to the water as they won't have some of the minerals that are needed.

 

[Lorna]

I didn't have to add extra minerals to the bottled water. I wouldn't have a clue on how to test the spring water, but I imagine that it may have a high PH aswell since your tap water is probally source roughly in the same location.

 

[-germ-]

I think (think ) that your higher PH is actually perfect for the cycle, i'm sure i read somewhere that this PH is pretty much the optimal level for their development....
Anyone heard this?

 

[Lorna]

Hi Germ,

You could be right. I haven't heard of this before but makes sense if a lower PH >6.0 can stop the bacteria growing. Not sure though

 

[-germ-]

Just been looking for the info i mentioned, can't find it as yet (the site i think it is on, is down)....
Theres been a lot of mentions about the ammonia to ammonium ratio being higher at higher PH's so its certainly a good thing you didn't go down the fish in route.
Not sure if its accurate but thought it deserved a mention.

 

[rdd1952]

Accordiing to what I have read, a pH between 7 and 8 is optimal and below 7 and above 8, reproduction begins to slow. I've never seen any information on the rate above 8 though. Here is the link to a pretty good site that explains it.

 

[Dark Wolf]

Hmmm, so it looks like my cycle might take aq bit longer than most, ah well can't be helped i supposed.

Am i right in assuming that even though the pH seems to be quite a steady 8.5, that the fish will eventually adapt to this, and it would better to leave it rather than put a ph lowering substance in, because that keeps the pH in an unbalanced state?

 

[rdd1952]

I would definitely stay away from the pH adjusting chemicals. As you stated, they keep the pH in a constant swing. Although most fish can adapt to a pH that is outside their optimal range, 8.5 may be a little high for most community fish that prefer slightly acidic water. The fish Aphotic Phoenix mentioned should be fine in your water.

 

[FishWishDish]

I hadn't thought about using bottled water, could look into it. Actually as i live in the country, we have a spring in my village, which has running water, or would people suggest steering away from that idea, as it could have lots of other nasties in it.

I have read that this is a VERY BAD idea... in part because ornamental fish are too far bred from their wild counterparts to be exposed to wild elements, or something along those lines...plus you don't know what's in that water. If you wouldn't drink it, don't submerse your fish in it, I think is a good rule to follow.

But we also have high PH water, and have been using bottled. One tank has gone up to high 7s and the other stays around high 6s, from the same source water. Anyone know why that happens?