Quarantining My New Loaches

[shrimply]

Hi guys, looking for a bit of advice.
 
Today I received my much awaited loaches.  7, currently very active and healthy looking, Botia kubotai. They are very cute and I'm dead chuffed with them.
 
At the last minute though I decided I should probably quarantine them, especially since they came straight from the supplier so they haven't had any time sitting in a shop for the ill ones to die off etc.
 
Just wondering if anyone had any tips about quarantining them.  There is lots of information online about setting up the tank, but a lot less about tank maintenance during that time,  what to look out for, and how long they should be quarantined for.
 
My concern is that I know these loaches won't be happy in the quarantine tank, I've made it as dark as possible and included lots of hides, but I know they are sensitive to immature tanks and need lots of hiding places and stimulation, so quarantine is probably far from ideal for them.  Any thoughts are much appreciated.
 
Some pictures, not the best but I'm sure these guys aren't the easiest to photograph at the best of times, nevermind without flash or lighting, they are tiny though.
 

 
 

 

 

 

 

 
 

 

[star4]

For starters you have done the right thing leaving the bottom of the tank bare. I know with small fish it is difficult, but you should be able to see that they are going to the toilet ok. Second thing to watch for is general behavour, are they lively, is any of them hiding too much, how well are they feeding etc
 
Signs to watch for any flicking or flashing some parasites can take a while to show up as can any bacterial infections. As for maintenance, I usually do no different on a quarantine tank to my normal tanks ie a weekly water change, however if problems occur I will do more frequent water changes.

 

[shrimply]

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.  What's the story on preventative treatments?
 
I'm reading a lot of these guys are still wild caught, but I can't imagine getting hold of anything to treat internal worms is easy in the UK without a visit to a vet.
 
One of them definitely appears to be flashing at what point should I treat for things, do I wait until there is more evidence.  Knowing these guys it could just be a quirk of one of them haha.
 
Would hate if I ended up losing any of them, they are already incredibly entertaining to watch.

 

[star4]

Camalanus worms can be treated successfully with sera nematol which is available in the UK.
 
This is the benefit of a quarantine tank, you can observe their behaviour and (hopefully) quickly learn what is normal behaviour and what is not. Of course obvious things to look for are ich a very common thing with new fish, but that I would only treat if its visible.
 
If they are wild caught. personally I would treat with a general antiparasitic med like sterazin if they have not been quarantined and treated by the shop, but you would have to check if they would be OK with sterazin first, that I am afraid I do not know with these fish. That would be the only "preventative" med I would use without physically seeing something wrong with the fish. Sterazin does not kill camalanus worms, you would notice if the fish had these as they would become really skinny and you would see red worms hanging from the anus.
 
Hope this helps

 

[shrimply]

Thank you, very helpful.
 
There is no visible signs of anything being wrong at the minute.  I think I'll probably order the sterazin and some protozin in case it's needed.  Interesting that the sterazin is a course of treatment where as most other wormers I've looked at are a once off.  I'm not a big fan of preventative treatment but there isn't many other options in these cases I guess.
 
What is the deal with worming, I know in most cases in livestock etc, you treat to decrease burden on a regular basis never completely eradicating the infection.  Not least because in many cases individuals completely eradicated of parasites are actually less healthy.  I presume it's the same here, you aren't killing everything, in which case, if there isn't any detrimental signs, should I be doing it at all?
 
Not expecting a comprehensive answer here but if anyone wants to weigh in with thoughts and opinions...
 
Trying to do my best by these little guys but its difficult especially when they are known to be a bit delicate.

 

[star4]

Worming fish is a personal preference really. I rescue fish, when I get new fish come in, if they have come from poor conditions I will worm them as a precaution, if fish have been brought to me that have been well cared for then I do not worm them, just quarantine and monitor. If on the rare chances I get to treat myself to a new fish, I only quarantine them not worm them.
 
Most fish worming medications "control" infestations, not killing it off entirely but bring it down to a level where the fish's immune system can cope, which with the correct diet, husbandry etc you may never need to worm fish again.
 
It is difficult to decide to use a preventative worming treatment or not. Stress can play a big part lowering the fish's immune system, which is why when I rescue fish from poor conditions I treat preventatively.
 
I have no personal experience with these loaches, so you know them better than I . Therefore, another option would be to use some garlic infused brine shrimp, or other garlic infused food if you do not really want to use a medication. Waterlife do a product called Vitazin which you soak food in, it has additional vitamins and minerals to boost the immune system. This would give them a boost to fight off any problems themselves.

 

[shrimply]

Thanks, sort of as I expected.  I'm considering the sterazin as a good idea, especially since one appears to be flashing and it's supposedly totally safe for loaches.
 
Got more pressing concerns though, there was a 1ppm ammonia reading in the tank this morning, this is unexpected and very very worrying given that it's supposed to be a stress free environment.  Not happy.
 
I've done a 50% water change and will do another one later and have added more mature media in the form of a DIY sponge filter.  Not sure what else I can do.

 

[star4]

There is nothing more you can do other than monitor the water for ammonia, but if you have added more media and done a wc it should right itself, but test and wc again if necessary.  That could be why one was flicking.

 

[shrimply]

Thanks, I don't know what to do, I can't seem to keep the ammonia down, and I really don't understand why.  I feel awful because I feel I'm subjecting them to even more stress than is necessary and I might end up losing them because of this.

 

[star4]

Have you tested your tap water just in case?, the only other thing is if your DIY sponge filter is not working correctly for some reason.

 

[shrimply]

Tap water is fine.  I'm running two small internal filters, packed with media from the main tank, and yesterday added the sponge filter.
 
The way I see it there is one of two possibilities.
 
Either the bacteria colony just isn't big enough, but its well established media so it should grow to manage it in no time.
Or, for some reason my decholorinator isn't working killing the bacteria, I can't see how this is as I never have any problem in my main tank, but it is quite old.
 
Which leave me with a dilemma, if the later is the problem, then the best thing to do would be to move more media across, try a different de-cholorinator and see how things go, if it's the former, however, this would be a step backward instead of forwards.
 
Any thoughts?  Bit upset that this is going so unsmoothly.

 

[shrimply]

An update, I revised my previous logic, given that I used main tank water when I set up the tank, and ammonia built up initially, it's unlikely that it's a water treatment problem, and I can't see how I could possibly have killed off the bacteria in any other way.
 
I did four water changes yesterday, the last was late evening, I didn't test the water because I knew it would build up over night in any case so a water change was vital.  Having done some more reading, I upped the temperature slightly, not too high because the loaches don't like heat but 25C should suit both the loaches and bacteria.  I also added even more surface agitation to ensure everything was as oxygenated as possible.
 
This morning ammonia was at 0.5ppm, which doesn't seem too bad in a 12 hour window.  No nitrites though which is odd.
Having done another water change this morning they seem more active and playful, although I only seem to be able to account for 5 at anyone time, hopefully I haven't lost any, certainly isn't any evidence of this.
 
The only visible signs that anything is wrong is a couple ( I think, it's hard to keep track of who is who) are still flicking and flashing badly at times.  So I think the best course of action is probably to go ahead and treat with sterazin once I get the water parameters stable.  I'm making the assumption, given the stress levels etc that if white spot was the cause it won't take long to make a visible appearance.  I'm preying I don't have whitespot because it will be a nightmare to treat in these fish.

 

[star4]

I am stumped at what to suggest, I set up quarantine tanks exactly the same, only once did I have a problem which water changes sorted out (not helpful I know). Hopefully it is just a mini cycle. If (pray not) you do end up with ich use Esha Exit, it is safe with loaches and a very low quick dose. I have used it with dwarf chain loaches.

 

[shrimply]

Thanks, the Esha products look very good and good value for money, will keep them in mind.  Almost tempted to order the exit and 2000 as a "just in case"

I'm a bit annoyed to be honest, I feel like I did everything by the book as much as I could and it's all just went wrong on me.  Still I'll know for next time to set up the quarantine tank in advance and feed ammonia to get the colonies up to scratch.

Things seem to be going OKish, fingers crossed.

Having done a water change at 10am, of 75% at most, the reading now, 7 hours later, is 0.25ppm ammonia.  So that would suggest an improvement I think, an increase of 0.125 over 7 hours is better than its been.

Still absolutely no sign if nitrites though, which is a bit perplexing.

No fatalities that I've discovered yet.