Practical Fish Keeping Forum

[jourdy288]

No-one here knows all the facts in this case, yet still feels qualified to make snap judgments about this autistic child who is not able to defend himself here.

Ignorant postings like the following do your forums reputation no favours, even if as I'm sure, they only represent a small but loud minority;

I am not seeking an argument, and come here outside of my role as a moderator on the PFK forum only to ask for this unnecessary abuse to stop before it causes any harm to the child in question.

So...you have a wee bit of power on some other site, thus giving you the gall to come over here and try and shove your views down our throats. But, when one of our members goes to PFK and expresses his views, you ban him....Hmm...Real nice double standards there bubba.

What does you being a moderator on another form have to do with anything? As I said before, and let's put this into context for you, I don't care if you're the Pope, Allah, or what-not...If you do something stupid, or worth reprimand, then you should take what people throw at you. Just because the kid has some disorder doesn't make it any better, and...to tell you the truth I don't care if he has 'fixed the problem'...If he did it once, he'll do it again.

Perfect example: I have posted many heated 'Ignorant Posts' before. And guess what... Odds are I'll do it again... But it's ok because of two reasons: I'm southern, we're just naturally more prone to violence. Secondly, I have diabetes which causes me to mood swings, making it all right for me to go off on little spats now and then.


See how that works? You try to demonize us ( and before you take this time to twist my words into something along the lines of " I was just pointing out the rude and offensives posts by a 'minority' of the users on this forum blah blah blah ) by saying that we're causing this kid harm if he manages to read any of this...Stop and think of everything else he can get to while on the computer, I'm pretty sure a person who had only the welfare of the fish in mind is the least of his worries.

Or something like that...As I really...really could care less at this point...
Have fun, and please, enjoy your stay here at TFF...Us 'ignorant minorities' will try and stay out of your way as much as possible.

And yes, this thread did get a bit out of hand - I don't think it did - but uptight people with nothing better to do except whine and moan about something might. But ya' know...there's not much you can do at this point except continue moaning, and ripping at each other until the thread is closed, or some-one gets banned. Or let this Bob fella and CFC work out his ban via pm or off site. ( yes yes yes, I know, he's not banned any more...but, they made sure he wasn't before they sent their little messenger over here...gives them more leverage)


Am I being too hostile? Hopefully...hopefully...someone will dissect my post and point out all these revealing facts to me that without the help of their superior intellect, I don't think I'd ever have figured out.


This whole conflict should just turn into a massive forums war...Flaming balls of poorly worded and written insults flying across the vast expanse of the interweb. People impaled by improper grammar diatribes and their bellies sliced open with the vicious retorts. Virulent PMs infecting every member of each forum with barbaric rage. Inflicting the desire to beat and torture the opposing side with blunt objects... until after a long, bloody spat filled with many tears - you see not everyone can handle the effects of such atrocious text - one enterprising soul steps forth and offers a pretty flower of peace and we live in harmony...happily ever after.

Well said.

Anyhow, the point is, the fish need bigger tanks. Get the fish bigger tanks (or a tank) and that's it. I think CFC was very tactful, and others were trying to incite a fact. CFC pointed out a valid point. Redundant sounding, but true. Just make sure the kid knows well enough to take care of the fish properly. That's it, plain and simple.

 

[Jarcave]

Hi CFC

You may recognise my user name from the PFK forum which I joined just a couple of weeks ago. If so, you'll know I am disgusted with the way that particular forum member keeps his fish. I'm also more disgusted with his employer who supplies him with his fish. I've made it quite clear on the board and via PM to the young lad that what he is doing is wrong. However I believe his condition affects his judgement. In short, he won't be told. Not by a forum membe or anyone else. It's a well known symptom of autism.

I also PM'ed the site admin and two administrators asking them to do something about the poor advice that the member was giving people. All three responded quite quickly by posting that his fish are kept in unsuitable conditions. One moderator even created an article which soon attracted interest and quality information on keeping rays. Potential ray keepers will now be better informed through the actions of the site admin and the mods.

However this situation poses the question, what do you do in the instance? Ban him? Persist with giving him advice when he constantly ignores it? Post correct advise when he "misleads" other forum members? If you are outraged with his posts on the PFK forum, avoid the MFK forum for sure! There is some hope, he does plan to build a large tropical pond in the near future.

Bob Mehan and the other forum mods are in a difficult position. They have a responsibility to protect forum members (Especialy children) from abuse, and have to take any special circumstances into account. Whilst still ensuring that the general public receive proper advice on caring for their fish. And to try to ensure that forum memers house and care for their fish correctly. It's all well and good taking a pop at Bob, but can anyone come up with a solution to the issue? Thats not aimed at anyone in particular!

However, I'm confused. Were you definately banned? You've posted on the board since 07/04. On that particular day, I had real problems accesing the forum and was redirected to other pages of the site due to forum issues. It got even worse on 08/04 I think you may be mistaken. If you were banned, I'd be suprised as I haven't seen anything that warrants a ban? I did see a couple of posts directed at CFC that were bang out of order, (Quoting your snakehead culling) so I don't know if theres any forum history / political cack here. But I hope you continue to post on the PFK forum.

Sincerest regards
JC

 

[DocGreen]

This , in my view has been building for a while. When Bruce first started posting on PFK he came in for a bit of flak. Several people myself included talked to him about his fishkeeping and how some fish were not suitable for his tanks (or the trade in some cases) , how he was clearly overstocked in certain tanks and his practice of buying / loaning fish and returning or swapping them , growing small specimens on for eventual return to the LFS and display. Eventually it was made known to us regarding his medical conditions. I myself suggested Bruce write an article explaining his condition and how it effects his lifestyle and why he keeps fish the way and the types he does. At no point did I or any of the other Moderators or Admin condone what he keeps or the way he keeps them nor do we make excuses for his medical conditions or try to shield him from crticism . As Bob has said , it was discussed periodically and whilst we made some gestures to help guide and educate 'WE' are not responsible for his fishkeeping and it is not up to us to keep reminding him or anyone else for that matter on how to keep his fish. The original article Bruce wrote helped a number of people understand his stance on fishkeeping (right or wrong).
CFC actually echoed a number of opinions. He was never actually banned from posting and has no restrictions on his membership at all and has been posting on the forum as any other member can. At PFK we try to maintain a family friendly forum , we have a number of younger readers and as such when threads start to get a little bit aggressive we have to decide what to do about it (as all moderators do). As a group we decided that the trend of the forum had got to the point that some people were getting more than carried away (albeit with good intention) and we introduced a Miserable Users Area (probably not a good name for it but nevertheless). This effectively gives whoever is on there a chance to cool down and to calm the forum.
Many people do not know the full story and yet feel free to comment as if they do. They don't know the measures the moderation team have taken in the past to deal with the situation and they certainly have no right to comment on the state of someones medical condition , whether it is a common cold or a severe mental or physical disablement. This goes for both 'sides' on this.
In this case Bruce's fish , although not kept in the conditions most of the experts agree on are at least kept in better conditions than some of the same species are kept in around the world. His ethics may not be the best and his reasons for keeping those fish in the way they are kept are , as has been pointed out , very debatable.

Personally I think far too many people on both forums who were not involved in the original threads and posts climbed on hobby horses that were far too big for them to ride and fight in a non-existant war. The people who were involved directly know the full story , the people who weren't became busy making mountains out of mini mole hills.

 

[Jarcave]

I do think the LFS he works at sets a very bad example to hobbyists. Also, Bruce's posts are a very bad advert for this shop.

Also, I can't remember who but some (Insert suitable description here) posted that a PFK member poster encouraged BWB to breed rare tankbusters on this very thread. I think the said (Insert suitable description here) should go to the PFK forum and reread that very thread. I hope they don't feel too stupid when they do!!!

I advised Bruce to try and put his fishkeeping skills to good use by breeding fish that are rare in the hobby and that can be adequately housed more easily than tankbusters!!!

 

[DocGreen]

And I mean no offense to anyone.

 

[CFC]

Its not just the shop it sets a bad example for. While i sympathise with the members disability it is clearly obvious by his following of similar aged members that he is encouraging others to also keep large growing fish in tanks that are too small for them, he may have an outlet for his fish once they have outgrown his tanks or even the means to buy larger tanks but this isn't an option for everyone as not all shops will take in tank busters and most zoo's and public aquariums are already over stocked, and we all know how expensive super sized aquariums cost to buy and run.
Whether connected or not the content of the PFK forum does affect the image of the magazine so allowing pictures and postings of grossly over stocked tanks and the keeping of unsuitable fish does reflect poorly if the posts go unchallenged publicly.

 

[dwarfgourami]

I appreciate your difficulties, but this is also a family forum, and yet the mods do seem to manage keeping members of all ages on the boards without quite a such a heavy handed approach as to what posters may or may not say. I have been on here for 3 years now and have always had a very strong feeling that this is "our" forum, that in a sense it belongs to all of us equally. You earn respect not through being a mod, but through displaying expertise.

The language used by the PFK mods who have explained their rationale on this thread sounds more like that of headteachers (the mods) managing children (members). I wouldn't want to join a forum with that attitude.

As for the more specific question of the actual fishkeeper, it is admittedly a difficult one, but many fishkeepers will still find the moral stance hard to accept. If it were a dog keeping forum, would one take the same approach?

What you have to accept is that new members join forums specifically to learn from older members. If somebody keeps large fish in small tanks and posts about them regularly, but noone is seen to challenge it, then others will obviously try to do the same thing. And particularly if the person is encouraged to write an article. I mean really, how would that work? Would you be prepared to say, Bruce has this condition and that is why he keeps fish in the wrong way? Wouldn't that be even more cruel to the poor lad? And if you don't, but just let him write the article, then you are endorsing the practice and encouraging others to do the same.

Speaking as a parent, and the parent of a disabled child, I would be very unhappy to see the my child's disability be used in this way.

 

[RadaR]

it is clearly obvious by his following of similar aged members that he is encouraging others to also keep large growing fish in tanks that are too small for them

I got that impression too Dean. Similar aged lads sticking up for one another in what would be a losing battle if mods hadn't jumped in and told people like yourself to "drop it".
I personally looked up all your pots on PFK and found each and every one of them to be well constructed and not in anyway boisterous. Any act of accusing you of being rude is bewildering, seeing as yourself and even Mark at one point were spoken rudely to.

 

[Jarcave]

Its not just the shop it sets a bad example for. While i sympathise with the members disability it is clearly obvious by his following of similar aged members that he is encouraging others to also keep large growing fish in tanks that are too small for them, he may have an outlet for his fish once they have outgrown his tanks or even the means to buy larger tanks but this isn't an option for everyone as not all shops will take in tank busters and most zoo's and public aquariums are already over stocked, and we all know how expensive super sized aquariums cost to buy and run.
Whether connected or not the content of the PFK forum does affect the image of the magazine so allowing pictures and postings of grossly over stocked tanks and the keeping of unsuitable fish does reflect poorly if the posts go unchallenged publicly.

I agree with everrything you have said. My posts on the PFK forum will have illustrated that. Sadly, it's not just the other adolescents that believe he is some kind of 15 year old Herbert Axelrod, there are plenty of adults that encourage him too. Another concern to me is the advice that must be on offer at his place of work...

 

[PrettyLittleLamb]

I think it's really sad the way this has escalated. I have been a member on the PFK forum for several months now and have recently joined this forum, neither forum should be slated as we should all be working together for the welfare of the fish.

I personally don't agree with the way the named youth keeps his fish but am also not qualified to comment as I know very little about tankbusters. I think CFC was quite within his right to question the way the fish were kept however, without being a member on the PFK forum I don't see how the majority of you are able to comment from viewing one or two threads about this issue. As stated by Bob Mehen, this issue has been discussed with the young man in question (and I presume is ongoing) so what gives any of you the right to slate the moderators and admin after briefly visiting the site? Some fishkeepers, regardless of the advice you give them will continue to keep fish in unsuitable conditions...banning them has no effect other than pushing them out an meaning they look to other forums to 'show off' their tankbusters...keeping the named youth as part of the forum ensures that although the influence over him may be small, it eventually could contribute to some radical changes in which him and his parents change their current attitude towards keeping such big fish.

Maybe this issue wasn't handled in the best possible way...I must admit CFC that I didn't like the way you initially 'flounced' into the forum but you did bring up some valid points which I feel (encouraged by other members) have contributed to the PFK forum becoming a better place. The other 'lads' who aspire to have tanks like the young man in question I feel will have to be put on the right track very soon (if they haven't already) and hopefully this will contribute to a better community. Apart from this issue, I really feel that the forum promotes good advice and has helped many people...maybe there aren't loads of members (like on this forum) but it doesn't mean it is not worth its weight in gold.

I think you will also find that very few members on the PFK forum actually like the MFK forum and this has been highlighted in a number of threads recently.

Many of you have taken an unwarranted 'pop' at the magazine and forum and I think it's a real shame, working together we could make a huge difference...by arguing all we do is fuel animosity at other people who also love to keep fish.

I don't wish to cause any more arguments or fighting with this post. From spending many hours on the PFK forum I have been very impressed with the responses and the community feel, and from using this forum recently I have also been very impressed, the fast responses coming from so many members is quite astonishing to be honest! What I'm essentially trying to say is that I'm not taking sides, I haven't been a member on this forum long enough to know about many attributes which I'm sure you have, and I don't wish it to seem like I'm completely defending PFK but after reading some posts on this thread from members on here I was quite disappointed and wished to share my viewpoint.

I think I've waffled enough. I hope no-one is offended as that wasn't my intention.
Take care,
Jo

 

[Gillymore]

I joined the PFK board when I couldn't access the TFF. I didn't post anything (I don't recall posting owt like) because i was happy enough to just log on and read what was happening on their board at that moment of time......(got some great info and advice into the bargain).

 

[mark7616]

One moderator even created an article which soon attracted interest and quality information on keeping rays. Potential ray keepers will now be better informed through the actions of the site admin and the mods.

That was me who wrote the stingray keeping article. The one written by the moderator on there should really be printed out and used as toilet roll because thats how much use it has.

 

[Luketendo]

Not sure why he doesn't collect smaller catfish, he could keep good species in his tanks rather than massive ones.

 

[Jarcave]

That was me who wrote the stingray keeping article. The one written by the moderator on there should really be printed out and used as toilet roll because thats how much use it has.

Hi Mark, if you read my post again I said it attracted quality info. Can't think who added it to the thread! lol ;-)

 

[Darkstar]

I can't be bothered to read this whole thread, but the basic facts which I would agree with seem to be:

1. Keeping fish and having disabilities are two seperate issues and neither one should be allowed to be detrimental to the other. Much like religion and politics.

2. PFK forums are crap and the mods there have the opinion that they are superior and more knowledgable than the vast majority of other fishkeepers.

And while I'm at it, the whole of the PFK site is crap in fact.