This conversation originally started by Pufferpunk:
Levimisole:
Ok, thanks to all the info I've been gleaning off the site and from people I might have found an alternative for discomed.
Discomeds main ingredient is levamisol, so a quick search revealed a wealth of info on it.
Leslie - is your Puffer Queen friend using that? Can you ask her about some of this stuff?
http
/www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=...vamisole+animal
It's mainly used as a dewormer for livestock, put in food or water. I won't take credit for that idea, I just can't remember who I got it from I think Leslie?
Check this out -
http/www.pbsanimalhealth.com/cgi-local/S....html?E+scstore
Ok, now the first problem - How to dose? You have a lot more leeway when it comes to overdosing with a 400lb swine than you do with a puff.
Here's the Discomed dose - 250mg capsules of water soluable Levamisol.
How can we find out if thats concentrated or not?
Would the people who have any sort of experience with this please pipe in to help? I'm still looking for dosing data for alternatives, what else would I need?
Secondly, administration-
Levimisole is water soluble. Food dosing has been shown to work and is preferred, but with problem puffs that wont eat, is it possible to dose the water? And what would the effects be between fw and sw due to the osmotic difference (since SW fish drink and FW do not) ?
Third, Discomeds other ingredients -
250mg capsules of water soluable Levamisol. NaCl, Piperazine, Magnesium Sulfate & Neomycin Sulfate Activity
Thought on what the other stuff does and how necessary it is?
I also plan on experimenting with some DPs from Petsmart, because, lets face it, even as guinea pigs they stand a better chance. RTR how would you run an experiment like that?
I'm really hoping we can all put our heads together to come up with a convenient solution for one of pufferdoms biggest problems.
Leslie:
Hi SG....
I was just going to answer your post in another thread and so here goes instead......
I did a bit of research ....
Kelly has been treating Puffers for years....she uses praziquantel which goes by the brand name Droncit, you may recognize the name if you have had cats or dogs. The preferred route is orally either in food if the fish is eating or via tube feeding if it is not. Baths and prolonged immersion can also be used, but are not as effective.
She uses the dosages recommended by Noga in Fish Disease Diagnosis and Treatment. This is the book most of the Public Aquariums use as a reference.
He recommends....
Baths: 38 mg/gallon for 3 hours
Prolonged Immersion: 7.6 to 38 mg/gallon for 24 hours
Orally: 23mg/pound of body weight x one treatment.
This of course would require the fish to be eating or would have to be tube fed.
Her recommendation for tube feeding:
Make sure you use anesthesia. She has had puffers actually bite the catheter in half & swallow it!. Placement can be difficult in that sometimes it just comes out the gills...............but if you have the puffer in your hand you can feel the catheter in its stomach. If you opt for the tube, make a food slurry & add vitamins as well (especially B12). Bob Fenner recommends baby vitamins. She recommended not giving to much as an anorexic fish may have diminished stomach capacity and if over distended the fish could regurgitate....a volume of 3-6 cc for my 4 to 5 inch Dogface was what sher thought was about right. She also recommended adding vitamins to the tank but to be prepared for algae blooms .
The problem I see experimenting with meds is that if the organism you are trying to kill is not susceptible 2 things happen. You subject the fish or other creature to the stress of being medicated with a med that will essentially do no good AND by doing so you also create a situation where exposing that organism other coexisting pathogens to inappropriate medications or medications in sub therapeutic dosages they are able to build up a resistance to the medication and become immune to it eventually.
Now re the Discomed.....
I am not familiar with the med. I did research the contents.....
Levamisole ( lee-VAM-i-sole) is an antineoplastic adjunct and biological response modifier It is used simultaneously with another antineoplastic medications for its potentiating effect against cancer of the colon. As many other antineoplastics it may suppress the bodies immune response thus decreasing it's ability to fight infection. It is available only with a prescription. My guess is it may be difficult to find. Medline lists it as available in Canada only.
Noga recommends its use for the treatment of susceptible non encysted nematodes in the following routes and dosages .....
Prolonged immersion: 38 mg/g. He does not mention for how long.
Orally: 1.1 to 4.5 mg/lb of body weight/day for 7 days.
Piperazine (PI-per-a-zeen) is a systemic Anthelmintic ( ant-hel-MIN-tiks), which are used to treat worm infestations. Piperazine specifically treats common roundworms (ascariasis) and pinworms (enterobiasis; oxyuriasis). It works by paralyzing the worms and then are passed in the stool. Piperazine may not be available without a prescription. Available as a tablet only in the US.
Noga's recommended route of administration is orally only. Dosed at 4.5 mg/lb of body weight/day for 3 days.
Magnesium Sulfate: AKA Epsom Salt.... mostly used as a laxative as well as assists with osmotic regulation in fishes. This was recommended to me by Anthony Calfo of the WetWebMedia Crew. It can also can be used to relieve some bloating in fishes as well as the fluid behind "pop-eye. It is a very good tonic and harmless. So my guess is by adding this to this med it ensures the fish passes the paralyzed worms in its stool and possibly any bloating caused by the deworming.
Dosage: 1 heaping Tbsp/5g of water and may be repeated again once in a couple of days. Continually added, it increases the mineral hardness......generally a good thing, but can be abused.
Neomycin Sulfate belongs to a class of antibiotics known as Aminoglycosides. They are antibiotics that are highly effective against gram-negative and to a lesser extent gram-positive bacteria. They are bactericidal and work by inhibiting protein synthesis causing the bacteria to produce defective proteins which are essential for their growth... It is used to suppress Intestinal Bacteria before gastrointestinal surgery in humans and most likely added prophylactically to the Discomed with the intention of helping to prevent an infection infection should the fish fall victim to the immune suppressing side effect of the Levamisole.
This medication is poorly absorbed when taken by mouth it is however still systemically absorbed, when given orally and carries, what I would consider some serious risks in humans, even when given at the recommended dosages......it can be neurotoxic, ototoxic and nephrotoxic causing permanent damage...... meaning it can permanently damage the nerves innervating the kidneys and ears. It is used in topical ointments and solutions without systemic problems because it is not absorbed systemically when given via these routes. Resistance to this medication occurs rapidly.
My gut feeling on this and my preference would be to use the praziquantel (Droncit). It seems to have quite a few advantages over the Discomed and alternatives. Kelly has been using it for years very effectively. I see no reason to try something else. It is a bit pricy but easily available without a prescription. I paid something like 25.00 for 5 34mg tablets online and you may be able to convince a Vet to dispense some without actually seeing your fish.
It only has to be administered once perhaps twice, can be administered via a few routes and without negative side effects of the Levamisole and Neomycin. BTW given the nature of the Levamisole I do think those other ingredients are most likely very necessary.
If the Droncit is a problem I believe Kelly also uses a drug called Panacur the active ingredient is fenbendazole. We use this in dwarf seahorse and greater seahorse fry rearing tanks to rid the tank of hydroids.
Fenbendazole is another anthelmintic (deworming agent). It is registered for use in animals only and is used to treat various gastrointestinal parasites from animals. It is effective against roundworms, hookworms, whipworms, certain tapeworms and parasites called strongyles and strongyloides as well as parasites of the bronchial tree and lungs (Aelurostrongylus and Paragonimiasis). It is is available over the counter and comes with the warning that it should be used "under the supervision and guidance of a veterinarian. "
The Veterinary formulations include: Panacur® (Hoechst), Safe-Guard® (Hoechst) and other various generic preparations
The Precautions and Side Effects listed are as follows....
"While generally safe and effective when prescribed by a veterinarian, fenbendazole can cause side effects in some animals. Fenbendazole should not be used in animals with known hypersensitivity or allergy to the drug. Infrequently, vomiting can occur after administration. The presence of dead worms in the stool may infrequently be observed."
It is supplied
in 222 mg/gram granules
in 222 mg/gram suspensions and
in 100 mg/gram pastes.
Noga recommends the following dosages for aquatic aplications....
Prolonged Immersion: 7.6 mg/g once a week for 3 weeks.
Oral Administration:
11 mg/lb of body weight for 3 days or
23 mg/lb once a week for 2 weeks or
by tube feeding 23 mg/lb.
OK there is my $ 0.02, well OK perhaps it was more than 2 cents worth.......
I just found this link to purchase meds online from Mexico. Many meds are available there without a prescription MexicanRXOnline.com @
www.mexican-rx-online.com
WARNING: NONE of the anthelmintic are invert safe which means that snails, crabs, corals and other invert life WILL PERISH along with the GI worms you are treating.
It is NOT safe to medicate any display tank. Medications should always be used in a separate quarantine or hospital tank.
HTH,
Leslie
PP: Great Article
but they forum won't allow the links to be displayed anyway.
