Please Can I Get Some Approval/denial On This Stocking Idea?

[marnold00]

Hey all,
 
I'm new to the hobby. I currently have a 60l tank cycling (I hope... please see my post in the cycle your tank section ) And well I've got 4-5 weeks before I want to get any fish, giving me plenty of time to do my research. Oh yay, everybody and their mother appears to have asked for stocking advice on a 40-80l Tropical tank. Oh ****s there's different advice everywhere, and my ideas haven't been asked yet.
 
 
So, here we go.
 
The tank:
60l
Long (i believe thats the term?) 59cm wide, 30cm deep and 35cm tall
 
The stuff that isn't water:
 
a filter suitable for the size of tank - I won't say the name of the filter as I don't know the forum rules on this. It gets very good reviews on everybody's favourite shopping site which is also a forested region with a big river. 
 
A 100W heater which seems to keep the water at 26 degrees Celcius nicely.
 
Red sand substrate. Very nice and soft (I want to emphasise that it is soft. not that I really really really want some Cory's or anything................)
 
Some driftwood (eta tbc. Currently soaking in a bucket for the next two weeks)
 
Some real plants - this is my new project. I want a full living ecosystem. No fake plants for me
 
A lovely flourescent tube for daylight, and blue LEDs for night time.
 
some rocks
 
 
The water:
My tap water is hard water with a pH between 8 and 8.5. My test kit isn't very good. I've got a "better" kit arriving tomorrow. The guy at the LFS lives not too far from me and has the same figures for his tap water. He says he has no issues, but if I'm getting any then I can buy a 25l water tub for £6 and then refills of their pure water which they've essentially distilled for £2 a pop. To clarify they will NOT have used this water at all. He then said when I do a water change to introduce 10l of this water. What are your guys thoughts on this? I would do it in plenty of time before getting the fish - just so that if I have any deaths from it then it's only the plants.
 
 
So... my stocking idea. I want some bottom feeders, a shoal of colourful mid to top, and then a centrepiece fish. I do NOT want any fish that are going to overwhelm the tank with babies.
 
I was thinking:
 
4 Corys - preferably panda, bronze or albino - reasoning for this is I want bottom feeders, and I understand these corys can basically be the puppies of a fish tank... sounds great. Also a pleco will just get too big.
8 Neon Tetras/6 Cardinals/ Harlequins (although aren't these livebearers -> baby mayhem?)
Dwarf/Honey Gourami - a tough one here, I understand that the dwarfs are likely to die, but then they're just so unbelievably stunning to look at.
 
The plan would be to introduce the corys first, then a month later the tetras or whatever, and then the Gourami at some point after that.
 
I'm open to many suggestions, but i really really really want corys, so please base your suggestions around them
 
Thanks in advance peeples!

 

[Akasha72]

okay ... the problem here is all of those fish selections are soft water fish and with water as hard as yours I'd not recommend any of them. I'm so sorry
 
Have you considered RO water rather than your tap water

 

[marnold00]

No need to say sorry! This is exactly why I asked. I've just done a quick google on RO water - I believe this would be similar to the water which I can get from the LFS. Would you recommend trying to introduce some of this over the next couple of weeks to bring the pH and hardness down? Unfortunately I cannot give figures for GH/KH yet - I'll hopefully be able to do this tomorrow.

 

[Akasha72]

it would be best to get the figures for gH/kH - unfortunately I'm rubbish at converting that but there are many other members that have got their heads around it and will be able to help you further with fish choices.
 
If it does turn out that your water is too hard for the fish you want then RO is the best option. With a small-ish tank it's likely to be nearly as cheap as paying for water meter'd water! 
It does mean lugging tubs of water from lfs to home (unless you buy your own machine) but if it means you can get the fish you really want then it's worth it

 

[marnold00]

Well I have a car and I'm sure lugging the water without spillages will only improve my chauffeur skills. I can stomach a couple of quid a week with water changes - just means I have to drink one less pint a week in the pub! I've got plenty of time before I can start stocking the fish, so I guess I should start steadily introducing the water whilst doing regular tests.... Or would you recommend siphoning out all 60l and just filling it again with the LFS supplies? I wouldn't wish to kill my plants straight away.
 
 
Lets say I don't get the water hardness down, can you think of any suitable Cichlid combinations for the tank?
 
Bill and Ben suggested today that their bronze and albino cory's are all mass bred in Europe and are all accustomed to the harder water, which sounds a little strange.
 
If I succeed in getting hardness and pH down to more suitable levels for my original suggestion, would the total quantity make my tank overstocked? and do I have the right idea in adding a few at a time and spreading it out over a few months?

It's a shame really. If I put in a plant, experiment and it dies then I don't feel bad... Making an animal suffer though

 

[Akasha72]

I see Byron is here and he's great with the gH/kH thing so he'll be much more helpful on that than me 
 
If the water turns out to be very hard and your looking at cichlids you could be looking down the route of African cichlids. This means a hard scape though as they will destroy the plants

 

[marnold00]

Okay thank you I'll wait and see what Byron says if he sees the post.

I hear plenty of people say 'my whatever fish survives in non ideal conditions' and while this may be true I'd rather not torture the fish....

I can see me getting the water from the LFS. Its on my way home from work, and is easier than filling from the tap! My bucket doesn't really fit so I've made a contraption withsome tubing and a funnel. Its not going to end well haha

 

[Byron]

Before thinking about adjusting water somehow (which is not as easy as it may sound), we should have your GH (general hardness) and KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity) numbers.  If you are on municipal water, track down the web site of your water authority and see if there is data on the water.  If you find it and can't decipher it, post the link and someone here can have a look.  There is no point in wasting money for test kits for GH and KH until you know you will be going down the road of water adjustment.
 
The GH, KH and pH are interconnected, so changing one means changing them all or it will just be fluctuating parameters which is worse on any fish.
 
Byron.

 

[Akasha72]

he was here but he's gone now. Someone will be along to help. Hang tight

hit post at same time as Byron

 

[Byron]

Okay thank you

I'll wait and see what Byron says if he sees the post.

I hear plenty of people say 'my whatever fish survives in non ideal conditions' and while this may be true I'd rather not torture the fish....

I can see me getting the water from the LFS. Its on my way home from work, and is easier than filling from the tap! My bucket doesn't really fit so I've made a contraption withsome tubing and a funnel. Its not going to end well haha

 
I posted a suggestion, but while we're waiting on that, I'll comment on a couple things here.
 
First, there will almost inevitably be a point when you need to do one or multiple massive water changes (the onset of some "disease" or issue) and being able to take water direct from the tap makes life much simpler, and could save your fish.  Most of us cannot keep storage tanks of water on hand.  As I said in my previous post, once we have numbers we will have a better idea of how to proceed.
 
Which brings me to the other point I wanted to say something about, and that is fish surviving in less than ideal conditions.  You are not willing to take this approach, and that is very good.  As Nathan Hill says in the blue citation in my signature block, this is not the way of responsible aquarists.  Fish are living creatures that have evolved to function best in a very specific environment.  Being aquatic, it is even more critical than air is for any land animal, because the fish's physiology and metabolism is tied to the water and the ramifications are enormous for the fish.  I have written in detail on this in other threads you may be able to track down for reading.  I don't want to bog this thread down, not just yet anyway.

 
Byron.

 

[marnold00]

OK so the best I can do at the moment is:
 
311ppm of CaCO3 - classified as hard... over 350 is excessviley hard apparently, but from what I've seen, in the world of fish this is very hard, no?
 
and the water details: http/www.southeastwater.co.uk/media/1691468/crowthorne.pdf
 
I had a look to see if I understood it but it did not seem to make much sense.
 
What I can extract is:
 
pH 7.2-7.6
Ammonium 0.01-0.03
Nitrite 0.01
Nitrate 21.7-26.9 
 
The last three being in mg/l (which seems to be almost 1:1 with ppm).
 
Although this might not be the exact value coming out of my tap. Southeast water got me to put in my postcode and then select my house from a list, yet the pdf was for a town about 10 miles away, so whilst it may be my supply, it goes through a distance of travelling. Although i'm not an expert so no idea what this could actually do.

 

[Byron]

CaCO3 is calcium carbonate, and at 311 ppm it means fairly hard water.
 
Fish preferring or tolerating moderately hard or harder water will manage.  Livebearers are in this category, as are rift lake cichlids, some (but not all) rainbowfishes, and a few others.  Many of these will need much larger tanks, but there are suitable species.
 
Now that we know the hardness, if you do want to go down the road of adjusting water parameters, you need to dilute the tap water with pure water.  "Pure" water includes Reverse Osmosis water, distilled water, and rain water (if otherwise safe).  Mixing half/half for example will reduce the GH by half, so it is proportional.  The KH will be similarly reduced, and the ph will lower accordingly.
 
Bottled water may or may not be useable, depending what is in it.  Some people have a water softener for their general water, but this can be even worse for fish, depending how the softener works.  Many use sodium chloride salts to remove calcium salts, but the level of sodium chloride is even more trouble for fish.
 
Byron.

 

[marnold00]

OK thank you. I like the idea of using a bit of distilled water from the LFS and integrating it with my tank a little at a time to gradually bring the numbers down. Would you recommend trying to get a better idea of the GH and KH first?

I think it should be easy for me to maintain the quantity of LFS water - if I have 10l out of 55l as LFS then I will just keep the ratios constant. I'm not sure, however, what effect this could have.

Shall I try and get more accurate numbers tomorrow, and then we go from there?

 

[squidneh]

Since you are new to the hobby, I'd suggest you don't get into the tricky situation of trying to change your water to suit the fish. Instead find fish that suit what you already have. 
 
That doesn't seem to be the popular opinion here, but I wanted to throw it out there. I'm worried that it could scare you away from the hobby before you are truly hooked as it will be much more work than the average first (cycled) aquarium. 
 
Of course, your tank and your life - do as you wish! Just make sure you fully take into consideration the amount of work and monitoring that will go into this when you could just as easily (more easily) find fish that are what you are looking for without all of the added work. 

 

[marnold00]

Amusing. I've just been doing some more googling and was just about to post that instead I'm just going to go down the hard water fish route. Being able to just use my normal water means I have one less area to go wrong with, which means I'm likely to do better...




Soooo taking this thread down a different route, what would be some good suggestions for hard water fish?

Obviously they need to be relatively hardy fish as I'm a beginner, I don't want to be overrun by babies (but I am willing to accept that I may have to compromise), and I would also like more than one species in the tank.

I'm not necessarily looking for exact combinations here (unless you can think of a great community off the top of your head), but being pointed in the right direction would be great.

To save you scrolling up, the tank is 60l, 60cm wide, 30 deep and 35 tall

I have planted some plants, with the idea of adding a few more once these have grown and I can judge the size better. I'd really like to keep the plants as it adds a nice dynamic of needing to look after them as well asthe fish