Plant Newb

[Bluetooth]

Hi guys!

For a while ive been interested in having plants in my tank and have done so, but havent had amazing results and tbh a few of my plants etc look pretty crap lol.. basically i would like it if i could get a few pointers as the read me first topic isnt exactly newbie friendly!

First off, what plants do i have? I bought them from a reputable lfs and havent had any issues with them (owned for 2+ months)

I know i have 2 lots of java fern either end of the bog wood but what about the 3 plants in the middle? The long grassy type plant on the middle right is starting to die i think as the grass isnt very think and most strands have gone brown.

Secondly my java fern has somehow started sprouting leaves... out of its own leaves? is this normal?

Thirdly my tank stats:

200L juwel trigon
sand substrate
2x18w t8s, one white and one red (can find the temp of the red one but not the white)
ph 6.2
Nitrates 40ppm
cycled for about 4 months now.

Any comments or help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[KittyKat]

Right to left (from what I can see): Java fern, Amazon sword, sword, Vallis, Java fern.

Your problem with the Vallis might be because it needs very hard water to thrive and can be quite difficult in softer water (which is what your discus need).

What are your water hardness? The parameters matter as much for plants as they do for fish.

That is how Java fern procreates: I'd leave the baby plantlets there. Make sure that the rhizome (stick the roots and leaves grow out of) are above substrate (sand) at all times.

As always, I recommend Anubias and Java moss. Hygrophyla might work along the back and some Crypts at the front.. how long are the light on for? What is aeration like? Do you have reflectors behind the lights?

 

[Bluetooth]

Right to left (from what I can see): Java fern, Amazon sword, sword, Vallis, Java fern.

Your problem with the Vallis might be because it needs very hard water to thrive and can be quite difficult in softer water (which is what your discus need).

What are your water hardness? The parameters matter as much for plants as they do for fish.

That is how Java fern procreates: I'd leave the baby plantlets there. Make sure that the rhizome (stick the roots and leaves grow out of) are above substrate (sand) at all times.

As always, I recommend Anubias and Java moss. Hygrophyla might work along the back and some Crypts at the front.. how long are the light on for? What is aeration like? Do you have reflectors behind the lights?

I dont rightly know my water hardness (lost my water hardness tester recently... lol) but the local waterboard says moderately soft 35mg/l, the discus seem to love it so im guessing thats about right =-) ill attempt to find my GH tester tonight.

The Java fern is planted inside the sand at about 1.5" depth, has always been planted and havent had any problems with it, ive heard you can attach it to bogwood and would love to know how i can do that?

The light is on 12 hours per day, im going to be getting a timer for the light and make sure it runs for 12 hours every day. Also regarding reflectors im a bit skint at the moment but im in the middle of doing a DIY reflector with some kitchen foil and sealent =-)

 

[three-fingers]

Pics not clear enough to tell, but the long grassy stuff looks more like mondo grass (a Ophiopogon sp.) than vallis. That would explain it going brown...it's a non-aquatic.

Java fern, as mentioned, should be planted attached to wood or rocks, you seem to have just taken the bunches of the leaves sold at the lfs and put them in the sand. If you only got cuttings (no rhizome that the leaves are coming out), you can tie leaves down to the wood using thread and the baby plants will grow out, it will eventually look good.

But I fear the reason you not having much success with the plants is that A) you only started off with a few - the more the better to avoid algae B ) you seem to have been unlucky enough to have bought poor-quality lfs bunched plants, and a non-aquatic and C) you have planted them wrong.

If this is a newish tank with clean sand and your not doing any ferts, the sword plant could really do with a root tab fertiliser .

Just in case you haven't already, take all the lead weights off the plants.

In future if you want more plants, it would be better to buy good-quality potted plants and then spend 20-30mins planting them properly (separating individual plants and spreading them throughout the whole tank).

 

[KittyKat]

The Java fern is planted inside the sand at about 1.5" depth, has always been planted and havent had any problems with it, ive heard you can attach it to bogwood and would love to know how i can do that?

Use some nylon or cotton strung to tie the rhizome to your selected spot. How do you know that the rhizome hasn't rotted yet? It would explain the baby plants: if the Java fern is dying, it will make every attempt it can to survive, normally by sprouting plantlets on leaves.

The light is on 12 hours per day, im going to be getting a timer for the light and make sure it runs for 12 hours every day. Also regarding reflectors im a bit skint at the moment but im in the middle of doing a DIY reflector with some kitchen foil and sealent =-)

The timer will benefit the fish more then the plants, 10-12 hours is what I normally have. I use almost exclusively DIY reflectors, there is only some marginal differences in comparison to bought ones.

Pics not clear enough to tell, but the long grassy stuff looks more like mondo grass (a Ophiopogon sp.) than vallis. That would explain it going brown...it's a non-aquatic.

Could be, could be.. but if it is Vallis, it definitely can't live in water that soft.

But I fear the reason you not having much success with the plants is that A) you only started off with a few - the more the better to avoid algae B ) you seem to have been unlucky enough to have bought poor-quality lfs bunched plants, and a non-aquatic and C) you have planted them wrong.

Ditto B and C, but A is, IME, not always the case.

If this is a newish tank with clean sand and your not doing any ferts, the sword plant could really do with a root tab fertiliser .

Ditto.

Just in case you haven't already, take all the lead weights off the plants.

Ditto. Putting lead in tanks long term is worse then not dechlorinating your water.

In future if you want more plants, it would be better to buy good-quality potted plants and then spend 20-30mins planting them properly (separating individual plants and spreading them throughout the whole tank).

Ditto, but also look towards hobbyist plant growers (check out the "for sale" section here and other places).

 

[RadaR]

Don't have the lights on for more than 10hours. It doesn't go towards growing the plants, only algae.
8hours is much more manageable.

 

[three-fingers]

Ditto B and C, but A is, IME, not always the case.

My experiance is different then, but curious you should have this experiance, the only time I can think this would be the case is when the plant species chosen aren't suited to the new set-up. Certainly, the algae-avoidance advice is basically always to start with and many fast growing easy plants as you can.

Ditto. Putting lead in tanks long term is worse then not dechlorinating your water.

Not as bad as you would think though, the reason I recommend removing the lead weights is so the plants can be planted properly, and often some plants just start to rot under where the lead weight and foam are.

The "lead weights" we use in aquariums technically are very rarely so any more, they are made from zinc instead. Not saying that's a good thing to have in the water either (wouldn't let them anywhere near my tanks), but I've never heard any reports of people having nay issues, and I've seen shrimp thrive and breed in tanks full of the things. I suspect that it's due to the fact that in any tanks with water acidic enough to cause the to corrode at worrying rate, there's plenty of DOC's to render any zinc particles harmless anyway, plus water changes and the addition of water conditioners would.

Just don't worry about it too much .

 

[Bluetooth]

Hi GUys!

Well last night i stripped out the plants and took a look at the dieing one. The reason it was dieing is something has been gnawing at the roots and has basically bit through all the leaves leaving them attached by 1 strand of leaf or something, so basically the whole plant was going south so i chucked it.

The others i have done as you said, removed the lead and re planted them, the same with the java fern, i packed them into crevices on the bogwood. Quick question about that though, some of the java fern just had stems with nothing on the end, but most had something that looked like a thick stem/seed, it was black but the rest of the plant was lush green apart from the leaves growing on the leaves.

ive also completed my reflector last night and the sealent is curing so itll be ready tomorrow.

 

[KittyKat]

Ditto B and C, but A is, IME, not always the case.

My experiance is different then, but curious you should have this experiance, the only time I can think this would be the case is when the plant species chosen aren't suited to the new set-up. Certainly, the algae-avoidance advice is basically always to start with and many fast growing easy plants as you can.

Why would starting with only one or two plants make them unsuitable for the set-up? You have now confused me. At any rate, I can confirm that yes, I have started new tanks with only one or two plants and have had them grow into a forest.
Also, I don't think that any algae problems were mentioned? You are, of course, correct that more competition for algae can reduce the amount of algae, and that is usually the case.

Ditto. Putting lead in tanks long term is worse then not dechlorinating your water.

Not as bad as you would think though, the reason I recommend removing the lead weights is so the plants can be planted properly, and often some plants just start to rot under where the lead weight and foam are.

I was recently reading some papers, and on average, to laboratory fish (normally zebra danios are used - the more toxic of the two), copper and lead are almost equally toxic. I think the precise quantities for lead being toxic to fish were 0.01ppm, as opposed to 0.2ppm for humans. I haven't got the book on me right this second, so can't check the exact numbers.. but if you have access to journals (paper not out of copyright yet - Aquatic Toxicology, I think it was for these figures), then I would be happy to get the paper reference for you There was also a note on plants, and this one I really might not remember correctly, but I think lead was one of the top 3 most toxic metals.
Yes, again, you are correct that plants benefit from having all commercial containers removed.

The "lead weights" we use in aquariums technically are very rarely so any more, they are made from zinc instead. Not saying that's a good thing to have in the water either (wouldn't let them anywhere near my tanks), but I've never heard any reports of people having nay issues, and I've seen shrimp thrive and breed in tanks full of the things. I suspect that it's due to the fact that in any tanks with water acidic enough to cause the to corrode at worrying rate, there's plenty of DOC's to render any zinc particles harmless anyway, plus water changes and the addition of water conditioners would.

Not sure about that, but will look into it - I have not bought "leaded" plants in many years now. I think Zinc was on the list of toxic metals too, but again, not sure! Really need to check.
No issues because the effects from heavy metal poisoning tend to be long term and look like organ failure - which is not uncommon in inbred fish anyway.
DOC?

Well last night i stripped out the plants and took a look at the dieing one. The reason it was dieing is something has been gnawing at the roots and has basically bit through all the leaves leaving them attached by 1 strand of leaf or something, so basically the whole plant was going south so i chucked it.

I was wrong then: it was most likely a non-aquatic one. Try it in a pot on your windowsill.

The others i have done as you said, removed the lead and re planted them, the same with the java fern, i packed them into crevices on the bogwood. Quick question about that though, some of the java fern just had stems with nothing on the end, but most had something that looked like a thick stem/seed, it was black but the rest of the plant was lush green apart from the leaves growing on the leaves.

Not really sure what you mean.. are you talking about leaves or rhizome?

 

[Bluetooth]

The main body of leaves, not the little baby ones.

Basically i took around 4 or 5 of the large leaves, with the baby leaves still attached and put the stem of the big leaves into the crevice on the bogwood. At the bottom of SOME of the stems was a black seedlike... thing? lol is that the rhizome? On other leaves there was nothing just the stem of the leaf and nothing else on the end like the seed thing had been pulled off.

Ill get some fresh pics over the weekend hopefully.

Also on another note, last week when i tested my nitrate was at 40ppm, last night its now down to 10ppm, i havent done a water change and i only topped up with dechlorinated water last night, am i right in assuming plants use nitrate as fertilizer?

 

[RadaR]

Also on another note, last week when i tested my nitrate was at 40ppm, last night its now down to 10ppm, i havent done a water change and i only topped up with dechlorinated water last night, am i right in assuming plants use nitrate as fertilizer?

Nitrates are very important to plants. Apart from CO2, NO3 is the most important nutrient.
We now know that nitrate does not cause algae no matter how much excess amounts are in the water. So don't be afraid of them
Btw, nitrate test kits, even the liquid ones that are available to us as hobbyists, are very inaccurate. Therefore do not draw up any conclusion from their results because they are most probably wrong. Your plants are the best test for nitrate. When they appear to be lacking in nitrogen, increase the nitrogen. See Plant Deficiencies here.

 

[Bluetooth]

Ok thanks, next question, would adding a home made co2 system benefit the plants i have at all? i do plan on adding more plants in the future however the lights i have are down at 0.7wpg, im also going to try and find a T5 light unit for my juwel trigon to replace the t8 unit i have now

 

[RadaR]

DIY CO2 on this size tank would most likely result in algae troubles. This is because DIY CO2 isn't enough to bring the CO2 up to 30ppm. The output rate would be increasing and decreasing, which algae would take advantage of.
You'd be better of dosing Excel.
Sure you want to add more light? More light means you need to dose more CO2 and more nutrients, not to mention increasing the flow/circulation to ensure all the necessary nutrients are delivered to the plants. Water changes need to be upped too.

 

[KittyKat]

The main body of leaves, not the little baby ones.

In my experience, normal for a Java fern which is sprouting plantlets before giving up on life.

Basically i took around 4 or 5 of the large leaves, with the baby leaves still attached and put the stem of the big leaves into the crevice on the bogwood. At the bottom of SOME of the stems was a black seedlike... thing? lol is that the rhizome? On other leaves there was nothing just the stem of the leaf and nothing else on the end like the seed thing had been pulled off.

The rhizome is the brown/black stick which the leaves and roots (furry brown strings) come out of.

Also on another note, last week when i tested my nitrate was at 40ppm, last night its now down to 10ppm, i havent done a water change and i only topped up with dechlorinated water last night, am i right in assuming plants use nitrate as fertilizer?

Amongst other things.. yes, they do.

We now know that nitrate does not cause algae no matter how much excess amounts are in the water. So don't be afraid of them

But certain types of algae require nitrates to grow too, as do plants and nitrates can still pose a threat to fish.

 

[RadaR]

But certain types of algae require nitrates to grow too, as do plants and nitrates can still pose a threat to fish.

Yes, once flagellates, they can use NO3 to grow.
Fortunately, Tom Barr has never heard of anyone killing their fish by overdosing nitrates in 15years+. Salmon and trout however do have an intolerance of nitrate. Most fish deaths in the planted tank are caused by CO2 gassing.