Ph Fluctuating

[rabbut]

can always bag up some water before you leave, them test both the morning and evening samples side by side. It will give a better indication of any movement

 

[Tobigara]

good idea. will exposure to air change anything?

 

[rabbut]

good idea. will exposure to air change anything?

yse, so force all air out of the bag, then tie it to seal

All the best
Rabbut

 

[rdd1952]

It doesn't necessarily have to be morning and night but I would think optimum would be to test when the lights come on and when they go off. The more tests you have, the more you stand to learn about what is going on.

 

[Tommy Gun]

Are you using a high range or low range pH test.....or one that tests for it all? low range. it never goes above 7.5

Have you ever tested with a high range test kit? Without looking at my own, I think that 7.5 is pretty close to the max a low range test will register right? I just think it would be good to ensure that it really is your water that changes and not an issue with the test itself.

Do you have any water movement in the tank? yes but probably not much

You should be able to tell how much water movement is occuring by adding up the flow rates of your filters and power heads...if you have them. It is usually advised to move twice the amount of water the tank can hold every couple of hours, if not every hour. Still water is less oxygenated and even though I am not sure how much that would play on pH, it is something to avoid nonetheless.

What substrate do you have in this tank with the problem? black and pink gravel

If it helps, I have a tank with pink gravel in it; but I swear it is my step-daughter's tank. How deep is the gravel? Could a lot of detritus be collecting in the gravel (you could try stirring a small area of it up more than usual during your next water change). Have you moved decorations and such to ensure that detritus isn't collecting within the gravel underneath?

Just to be sure, you aren't trying to shoot for a specific pH, just trying to get it to stabilize, right? i'd like to keep it stable somewhere between 6.5 and 7 but i'll take practically anything at this point

You probably should take whatever you can get anyways. The reason I ask is because the crushed coral might raise pH to above 7, but should also stabilize it. I also agree....

Coral looses effect with time.

...that coral will lose its effect over time, but it should take a long long time before it completely dissolves into the water and you have removed it all via water changes. I think you just dont have enough of it in your filter right now to make the impact that you need.

I know we seem to be disagreeing on a lot of issues Tommy.

Not to imply that you need my validation or anything but I agree with the vast majority of what you have to say, it is just the particulars really. For example....

While I agree that it is relatively simple to change the pH of a tank with little or no buffering capacity, in a 55 gallon tank (or any size tank for that matter), the pH should NEVER fluctuate from between 6 to 7, up and down, on a day in, day out basis. It's surprising that there has only been one death as a pH in constant swing like that is extremely hard on the fish. It's the reason we always caution against using the pH adjusting chemcials.

....I completely agree with this but I would stick a "should" or "shouldn't" in one or two places. I agree that for most of us it is easy to stick to a naturally occuring pH and keep it that way, but in reality, sometimes that doesn't happen. I also know that we can change the pH in a lot of ways without any product at all - for example, the instance of water changes playing a role on pH that has already been mentioned. One good example might be my reef tank....I use RO water which has a pH of about 6.0 or 6.2 at first, and only 7.6 when I mix in salt; however, once it is in my tank for a few minutes, the pH is a solid 8.3 - 8.5 no matter what. As you know, this is because my tank is full of calcium carbonate sources like live rock, my sand, and some crushed coral I put in there for looks, but I have to be careful not to readd the water too quickly or the pH of the tank will drop by majority vote (e.g. a bunch of 7.8 water mixed with 8.5 water). That is why I do smaller, more frequent water changes when I could probably go a month or more and be just fine with one, larger water change. Point being, hardly any "rules" apply to everyone, 100% of the time.

It's true that adding rocks, driftwood, etc can have an effect but the pH will move to where those items take it, up or down, and stay relatively close to there except for after water changes, which can obviously change it depending on the difference between tank and tap pH.

Somewhat true....but adding one pinch of gravel to a certain amount of water is not going to change as much as adding an entire bag would. And like I said, that change made by placing new water in a tank is generally temporary. Unlike adding a chemical, pH isn't really going to be dilluted permenantly. Even when I top my reef tank off with gallons of RO water - which I admit has happened a couple times when I was traveling or something - the pH doesn't drop to the midway point between the RO's 6.0 pH and the tank's 8.5 ph forever.

This is why I think the answer might either be a misleading test result, or slowly adding more crushed coral or other source of calcium carbonate...which there are a few.

As you also allude to, I think that testing for pH on a more regular basis is a good idea because this is going to give you a better idea of how much the pH is changing despite water changes and such. If you are testing just before and just after a water change, then I think you might be changing too much water at one time, or need to readd the water slower. I know that isn't usually something we talk about a lot, but it is the case for some people, including myself on some of my tanks.

I don't agree with the removing things from your tank though. My thinking is that if you want to have driftwood in your tank, keep it there and adjust in other ways (e.g. crushed coral). I also think that making a sudden change can be more harmful so no matter what you do, go slow.

It doesn't necessarily have to be morning and night but I would think optimum would be to test when the lights come on and when they go off. The more tests you have, the more you stand to learn about what is going on.

I agree...but would change that to testing about an hour or more after the lights go off. Any biological changes that depend on light aren't going to occur as quicly as...well, flipping a switch. I like the idea of taking some water out for later testing too. Maybe you can find some well fitting tops for your test tubes so you can just dunk one in, cover it, and go to work. I think you are supposed to use them anyways because you might not want to be covering the tubes with your fingers when you are shaking up some of those chemicals (birth defects might be a side affect of one or another...but I can't remember exactly right now).

------------
rdd,

As you probably have noticed, I am ont the type of person who is really worried about what others think of me, but I honestly can tell you that I never 'target' anyone on forums and so I do feel bad because it seems like I am bumping into you alot. My only goal by coming here is to learn and pass along what I have figured out thus far....you and I both know that there is a lot of conflicting information in/on this hobby and so in the past I have tried to make sure I figured out which is more accurate - and along the way, became opinionated. It is definitely nothing personal to you or anyone else on the forum; I just feel that I can back up 99.9999% of what I say so I say it. No hard feelings?

 

[Tobigara]

Are you using a high range or low range pH test.....or one that tests for it all? low range. it never goes above 7.5

Have you ever tested with a high range test kit? Without looking at my own, I think that 7.5 is pretty close to the max a low range test will register right? I just think it would be good to ensure that it really is your water that changes and not an issue with the test itself. i have tested with the high range. that's why i'm reasonably sure that it's never gone any higher

Do you have any water movement in the tank? yes but probably not much

You should be able to tell how much water movement is occuring by adding up the flow rates of your filters and power heads...if you have them. It is usually advised to move twice the amount of water the tank can hold every couple of hours, if not every hour. Still water is less oxygenated and even though I am not sure how much that would play on pH, it is something to avoid nonetheless. i never thought about looking at it that way. in that case i deffinitely have a good bit of water movement. i'm running 2 hob's with good gph

What substrate do you have in this tank with the problem? black and pink gravel

If it helps, I have a tank with pink gravel in it; but I swear it is my step-daughter's tank. How deep is the gravel? Could a lot of detritus be collecting in the gravel (you could try stirring a small area of it up more than usual during your next water change). Have you moved decorations and such to ensure that detritus isn't collecting within the gravel underneath? i'm pretty good with a gravel vac. and i move the ornaments around to make sure

Just to be sure, you aren't trying to shoot for a specific pH, just trying to get it to stabilize, right? i'd like to keep it stable somewhere between 6.5 and 7 but i'll take practically anything at this point

You probably should take whatever you can get anyways. The reason I ask is because the crushed coral might raise pH to above 7, but should also stabilize it. I also agree....

Coral looses effect with time.

...that coral will lose its effect over time, but it should take a long long time before it completely dissolves into the water and you have removed it all via water changes. I think you just dont have enough of it in your filter right now to make the impact that you need.

I know we seem to be disagreeing on a lot of issues Tommy.

Not to imply that you need my validation or anything but I agree with the vast majority of what you have to say, it is just the particulars really. For example....

While I agree that it is relatively simple to change the pH of a tank with little or no buffering capacity, in a 55 gallon tank (or any size tank for that matter), the pH should NEVER fluctuate from between 6 to 7, up and down, on a day in, day out basis. It's surprising that there has only been one death as a pH in constant swing like that is extremely hard on the fish. It's the reason we always caution against using the pH adjusting chemcials.

....I completely agree with this but I would stick a "should" or "shouldn't" in one or two places. I agree that for most of us it is easy to stick to a naturally occuring pH and keep it that way, but in reality, sometimes that doesn't happen. I also know that we can change the pH in a lot of ways without any product at all - for example, the instance of water changes playing a role on pH that has already been mentioned. One good example might be my reef tank....I use RO water which has a pH of about 6.0 or 6.2 at first, and only 7.6 when I mix in salt; however, once it is in my tank for a few minutes, the pH is a solid 8.3 - 8.5 no matter what. As you know, this is because my tank is full of calcium carbonate sources like live rock, my sand, and some crushed coral I put in there for looks, but I have to be careful not to readd the water too quickly or the pH of the tank will drop by majority vote (e.g. a bunch of 7.8 water mixed with 8.5 water). That is why I do smaller, more frequent water changes when I could probably go a month or more and be just fine with one, larger water change. Point being, hardly any "rules" apply to everyone, 100% of the time.

It's true that adding rocks, driftwood, etc can have an effect but the pH will move to where those items take it, up or down, and stay relatively close to there except for after water changes, which can obviously change it depending on the difference between tank and tap pH.

Somewhat true....but adding one pinch of gravel to a certain amount of water is not going to change as much as adding an entire bag would. And like I said, that change made by placing new water in a tank is generally temporary. Unlike adding a chemical, pH isn't really going to be dilluted permenantly. Even when I top my reef tank off with gallons of RO water - which I admit has happened a couple times when I was traveling or something - the pH doesn't drop to the midway point between the RO's 6.0 pH and the tank's 8.5 ph forever.

This is why I think the answer might either be a misleading test result, or slowly adding more crushed coral or other source of calcium carbonate...which there are a few.

As you also allude to, I think that testing for pH on a more regular basis is a good idea because this is going to give you a better idea of how much the pH is changing despite water changes and such. If you are testing just before and just after a water change, then I think you might be changing too much water at one time, or need to readd the water slower. I know that isn't usually something we talk about a lot, but it is the case for some people, including myself on some of my tanks.

I don't agree with the removing things from your tank though. My thinking is that if you want to have driftwood in your tank, keep it there and adjust in other ways (e.g. crushed coral). I also think that making a sudden change can be more harmful so no matter what you do, go slow.

It doesn't necessarily have to be morning and night but I would think optimum would be to test when the lights come on and when they go off. The more tests you have, the more you stand to learn about what is going on.

I agree...but would change that to testing about an hour or more after the lights go off. Any biological changes that depend on light aren't going to occur as quicly as...well, flipping a switch. I like the idea of taking some water out for later testing too. Maybe you can find some well fitting tops for your test tubes so you can just dunk one in, cover it, and go to work. I think you are supposed to use them anyways because you might not want to be covering the tubes with your fingers when you are shaking up some of those chemicals (birth defects might be a side affect of one or another...but I can't remember exactly right now).

------------
rdd,

As you probably have noticed, I am ont the type of person who is really worried about what others think of me, but I honestly can tell you that I never 'target' anyone on forums and so I do feel bad because it seems like I am bumping into you alot. My only goal by coming here is to learn and pass along what I have figured out thus far....you and I both know that there is a lot of conflicting information in/on this hobby and so in the past I have tried to make sure I figured out which is more accurate - and along the way, became opinionated. It is definitely nothing personal to you or anyone else on the forum; I just feel that I can back up 99.9999% of what I say so I say it. No hard feelings?

 

[Tobigara]

i am a complete and total schmuck. i was totally wrong with my kh measurement. i tested gh and kh again today and gh=8 kh=0. i got no measurement with my tap water or the tank water. this doesn't explain why the other tanks are pretty steady tho. maybe the proportions are good for the other tanks as far as crushed coral and wood.

so i'd like to apologize to all of you who tried to help. i'm an idiot

however...i would still like to know what to do. should i add more crushed coral?

i'm sorry

 

[rdd1952]

That definitely makes a difference. Your water has no buffering capacity thus is subject to an unstable pH. Even at that though, the pH should move in the direction the added items (bogwood, coral, etc.) take it and stay there. Subsequent water changes can bring it back toward the tap pH but it will probably slide back in what ever direction again. That still doesn't explain why your other tanks are stable and this one isn't. The daily water tests should help shine some light on the matter.

One other thing that I find odd though is that usually (not always) hard water (high GH) will have a high buffering capacity. Your GH is in the soft/medium hard range so you should have some buffering capacity. This site has a good explaination of the relationships between GH, KH & pH.