Parasites
- Thread starter Sickbound
- Start date
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Sickbound said:
Well, I never have and I haven't had a parasitic issue with my fish in years. This is totally unnecessary and I feel sorry for fish treated like that.
The most important thing with fish is to protect their immune system by keeping the water quality good, nutritious diet and remove any possible stressors like incompatible tankmates, incorrect enviroment, water stats not suitable for the species, etc..
A stressed fish with compromised immune system is a sick fish no matter how many meds you've thrown in the water prior, taking into account that meds are a stressor to fish and their enviroment so they can't do any good unless needed once it's too late/fish have become diseased.
Once a week is a bit over the top and can do real damage, we all (fish included) have parasites to an extent and they are even helpful for the fish in some cases, its when the numbers of parasites build up too much that its a problem but that tends to be when a fish's immune system is compromised.
That said, I always wormed my tanks twice a year with Kusuri Discus Wormer (flubendazole) and would do it for any fish that spend a lot of time grubbing about the bottom of the tank or species that are prone to parasite problems... like a lot of cichlids, clown loaches, livebearers etc... tetras and rasbora etc are generally fine and of course you don't want to medicate if you have invertebrates or really delicate fish species in the tank.
Its what works for me and a routine I came up with because I always found those species over time seemed to have high parasite burdens and once it was bad, was harder to treat, easier to control it.
You just need to know what works for your tank really! But weekly is just bad...
That said, I always wormed my tanks twice a year with Kusuri Discus Wormer (flubendazole) and would do it for any fish that spend a lot of time grubbing about the bottom of the tank or species that are prone to parasite problems... like a lot of cichlids, clown loaches, livebearers etc... tetras and rasbora etc are generally fine and of course you don't want to medicate if you have invertebrates or really delicate fish species in the tank.
Its what works for me and a routine I came up with because I always found those species over time seemed to have high parasite burdens and once it was bad, was harder to treat, easier to control it.
You just need to know what works for your tank really! But weekly is just bad...
Still, that's not the case with everyone, coming from someone that has mostly bottom feeders in their tanks. I've got corys I've owned for 2-3 years and clown loaches for a year and a half and I see no reason why one needs to medicate preventively. They are perfectly healthy so why? Fish getting sick all of a sudden without infecting them via external input is still enviromental, not something that happens occassionally just because they sift through the substrate.
The only time I have medicated a fish that did not seem ill was upon introduction into an already well established aquarium with a lot of other fish in it. It was a better safe than sorry routine, and guess what, no massive spreading infections in my fish keeping career yet!
Honestly, I've introduced non-treated fish without quarantine numerous times without infecting my tanks with anything. Pre-treating means nothing. Taking care of proper acclimating and introducing to a healthy enviroment with no stressors is everything. Why do people in newly setup tanks that have no idea how to establish a proper enviroment seem to have all those problems with ich and other diseases when introducing fish, or get disease outbreaks soon after.
In fact, when I happen to have a problem with one of my tanks which contained no new fish, mostly my own grown up fry, the issue was envoromental induced(new substrate suspected) and treating with several different medications did not make a difference. So I never found out the proper med but eventually it ran out its course with 4-5 casualties(6 months time). Which tells you, that it is very difficult to find the right meds to treat the right disease, so I can't imagine how some sort of off the shelf meds would help prevent all possible scenarios/diseases that can happen. In fact, if the fish was sick from something else, that may kill it faster. Or if the fish is stessed and with weak immune system, that may be the final culprit to induce a non-related disease due to additional stress.
This is how I approach my fish-keeping and it has worked for me long term. This is also how I approach medication when it comes to my own health. I don't de-worm myself either after working in a dirty field
In fact, when I happen to have a problem with one of my tanks which contained no new fish, mostly my own grown up fry, the issue was envoromental induced(new substrate suspected) and treating with several different medications did not make a difference. So I never found out the proper med but eventually it ran out its course with 4-5 casualties(6 months time). Which tells you, that it is very difficult to find the right meds to treat the right disease, so I can't imagine how some sort of off the shelf meds would help prevent all possible scenarios/diseases that can happen. In fact, if the fish was sick from something else, that may kill it faster. Or if the fish is stessed and with weak immune system, that may be the final culprit to induce a non-related disease due to additional stress.
This is how I approach my fish-keeping and it has worked for me long term. This is also how I approach medication when it comes to my own health. I don't de-worm myself either after working in a dirty field
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
Here is the thing, you need to ignore statements telling you that somebody has introduced new fish to their tank with out taking any of the traditional precautions and had no problems. This is much akin to somebody telling you they have jay walked all their life and never been run over to imply that it is safe to cross in the middle of the block and without having to look both ways first and nobody gets hit and thus everybody can do it. HOGWASH.
First off, one should not introduce new fish without putting them through Q. Just because there are instances where it works doesn't make it smart or correct. Second, deworming and treating for parasites is standard procedure for imported fish. It is supposed to be handled at the initial arrival facility. Usually, from there fish go to stores etc. or else to next level wholesalers who may asl want to treat for these things again. The problem is many of these people either do not treat the fish or else do not treat them well or long enough.
So my first question to folks who want to skip Q and precautionary medication is: "How do you know where the fish you are about to buy originated? Was it raised on a farm, in a tank or collected from the wild" How do you know from looking at a fish if it has internal parasites or worms? Perhaps some folks have microscopic Xray vision?
So, here are some good rules of thumb:
Always quarantine new fish no matter what the source. If you do not, please do not complain you have infected your main tank because you did not. F=the preiord for Q is 4 weeks for tank raised or farmed fish and 8 for wild caught. These are minimums not maximums. And please note these periods mean the amount of time for which all fish are symptom free and there are no deaths. Some things take more than a week or two or three to manifest themselves. If a fish dies or you have to do treatment, the time period starts over at 0.
If you are receiving wild caught fish which have arrived in country recently (inside the last 2 or so months), you should automatically treat for internal parasites and deworm them. The meds used for these things will not harm one's bio-filter and, when used properly, are pretty benign medications, that is, they will do little or no harm even when overdosed a bit.
There are a variety of meds that can be used. Some need to be mixed into food (pre-medicated foods may be available) and fed to the fish while others will work simply being added to the water. Depending on what country one is in, different meds may be available. For example MBOU stated she used "Kusuri Discus Wormer (flubendazole)" in the UK, here in the states I get generic flubendazole.
In the end what risks you are willing to take are entirely up to you. Making the right decision requires having the right information. Skipping quarantine or failing to take advisable and accepted precautionary treatments may just jump up to bite you, or you my get lucky and have it not matter. Toss a coin.
I will never suggest to anyone that quarantining new fish or proactively treating imports for parasites and worms is not a good idea.
1. The tank was not completely cycled.
2. The store fish were not healthy.
3. They got bad advice from a local store.
4. They listened to bad advice on a forum.
It doesn't take new fish going into a tank to have problems with something new, especially for those with multiple tanks. If you "share" nets or siphons hoses and gravel vacs, if you put your hands and arms into one tank and then another, if you use the same bucket for work on multiple tanks etc. etc., you can easily spread things between tanks.
However, there is no need to be treating for parasites and worms over and over without reason. Once the fish have been dewormed and are clear of nasty parasites, future treatment should be done in response to symptoms, not merely as a precaution.
First off, one should not introduce new fish without putting them through Q. Just because there are instances where it works doesn't make it smart or correct. Second, deworming and treating for parasites is standard procedure for imported fish. It is supposed to be handled at the initial arrival facility. Usually, from there fish go to stores etc. or else to next level wholesalers who may asl want to treat for these things again. The problem is many of these people either do not treat the fish or else do not treat them well or long enough.
So my first question to folks who want to skip Q and precautionary medication is: "How do you know where the fish you are about to buy originated? Was it raised on a farm, in a tank or collected from the wild" How do you know from looking at a fish if it has internal parasites or worms? Perhaps some folks have microscopic Xray vision?
So, here are some good rules of thumb:
Always quarantine new fish no matter what the source. If you do not, please do not complain you have infected your main tank because you did not. F=the preiord for Q is 4 weeks for tank raised or farmed fish and 8 for wild caught. These are minimums not maximums. And please note these periods mean the amount of time for which all fish are symptom free and there are no deaths. Some things take more than a week or two or three to manifest themselves. If a fish dies or you have to do treatment, the time period starts over at 0.
If you are receiving wild caught fish which have arrived in country recently (inside the last 2 or so months), you should automatically treat for internal parasites and deworm them. The meds used for these things will not harm one's bio-filter and, when used properly, are pretty benign medications, that is, they will do little or no harm even when overdosed a bit.
There are a variety of meds that can be used. Some need to be mixed into food (pre-medicated foods may be available) and fed to the fish while others will work simply being added to the water. Depending on what country one is in, different meds may be available. For example MBOU stated she used "Kusuri Discus Wormer (flubendazole)" in the UK, here in the states I get generic flubendazole.
In the end what risks you are willing to take are entirely up to you. Making the right decision requires having the right information. Skipping quarantine or failing to take advisable and accepted precautionary treatments may just jump up to bite you, or you my get lucky and have it not matter. Toss a coin.
I will never suggest to anyone that quarantining new fish or proactively treating imports for parasites and worms is not a good idea.
1. The tank was not completely cycled.
2. The store fish were not healthy.
3. They got bad advice from a local store.
4. They listened to bad advice on a forum.
It doesn't take new fish going into a tank to have problems with something new, especially for those with multiple tanks. If you "share" nets or siphons hoses and gravel vacs, if you put your hands and arms into one tank and then another, if you use the same bucket for work on multiple tanks etc. etc., you can easily spread things between tanks.
However, there is no need to be treating for parasites and worms over and over without reason. Once the fish have been dewormed and are clear of nasty parasites, future treatment should be done in response to symptoms, not merely as a precaution.
Yes, be ignorant.
I totally agree with quarantining fish.. But proactively treating is questionable unless you are getting wild caught fish quite often. If sick, the fish may happen to have a range of different diseases. Some Kusuri wormer plus is just a drop in the ocean. My post above was just to comment that in my case proactively treating wouldn't have done any good as the fish all turned out completely healthy. I was not advising against quarantining fish. This is a personal choice as long as one understands the risks.
And how do you know your fish no longer have parasites after treating with flubendazole? Just because you've satisfied your overworried mind by treating them? You said it yourself: "How do you know from looking at a fish if it has internal parasites or worms? Perhaps some folks have microscopic Xray vision?"
By the way, the reason antibiotics off the shelf for fish treatment are forbidden here in Europe is because some folks in other parts of the world overmedicated their fish to the point, that certain meds are no longer working against certain pathogens. Meds on fish are overused and still are.
Flubendazole:
1. Flubendazole is useful for controlling intestinal parasites, especially most of the protozoa, some nematodes and gill flukes.
It does not control bacteria or fungal infections and in fact may escalate these problems as they kill off the other infections. This compound is not the cure all.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
Sick- debate on forums is a good thing. We all learn from them.
Snazy, please. It is not a clash of opinions. Either it is or it is not a good idea to quarentine. Either it is or it is not a good idea to treat fish proactively under certain conditions.
Above here are your exact words:
So please then do not post a few hours later:
You cannot have it both ways. But please explain what point you were trying to make for readers in your first post? It seems to me that you were intimating that introducing fish (not bothering to mention where or how they come to someone) without treating them for anything or putting them through Q works just fine. I see no other reason for making a point of saying that. And nowhere in that original post did you say quarentining is a good idea but doing it is a personal choice? Had you I would not have reacted the way I did. Had I not called you on it, you would never had said a thing along those lines.
It appears you seem to have little or no experience with receiving fish which a scant few week before were in the wild. While I do not receive multiple boxed with 100s of fish, I have gotten wild ones with some regularity over the years.
I will try to explain why one proactively treats fish that came from the wild or from large scale suppliers who often have many wilds mixed in their systems.
1. The parasites and worms one encounters with imports are not commonly found in tanks but are common in the wild. There is almost a guarantee they will arrive in country carrying these things. Any decent importer knows to treat right away. Before these things can potentially run rampant, they go after them. The bigger problem is not that they fail to treat but rather that they move the fish out before the proper full course of treatment can be completed. It usually requires multiple treatments spaced a week or two apart. The meds they use are the same meds I buy online, so off th cycber-shelf.
2. The savvy fish keeper being aware of number 1 above also has meds on hand for treating the same things. Many of us will do another proactive round of such treatments because so often it has proven to be the wisest course. Once this is done th next step is to deal with anything of a bacterial nature.
3. The fish go into bare bottom tanks which can be monitored for expelled dead worms and for white tiny poops etc. This is one of the best ways to head off wasting disease which may not show itself for some time after fish have gone into the tanks of hobbyists.
4. As mentioned above these meds are pretty safe and can be overdosed to some degree without worry.
Please do not quote Charles Harrison, without sourcing it for folks to see. The Flubendazole info above comes from the following source http
/www.inkmkr.com/Fish/FlubendazoleTreatment.pdf Incidentally, this is where I get my Flubendazole and Levamisole HCL and I have corresponded with Dr. Harrison.
Snazy You needed to bring in combining the anti-parasite meds with anti-fungals or with antibiotics to come up with even a scrap of a reason that proactive treating might be a problem. But that is a different topic. It belongs under mixing medications and not in proactive treatments for internal parasites of worms.
And a lot of the reason certain places restrict the availability of medications for animals is they get used by people. Tertacycline, Erythromycin, Penicillin etc are cheaper as fish meds than as people meds. It is why my antibiotic med bottles state they are for fish use not human consumption. But that sure wont stop poor folks who can't afford or don't have a doctor let alone human meds.
You are absolutely correct when you say everyone is free to make "bad" decisions. Failing to quarantine fish is never a good decision ahead of time. It only becomes a good decision retroactively because of good luck. I do not care how long you acclimate a fish nor how clean and healthy your tank is, if the fish arrives sick, it will not be cured by these things. For example, Ich will not vanish this way, columnaris will not vanish this way, wasting disease will not vanish this way, callamanus will not vanish this way. Neither worms nor internal parasites will vanish that way. As long as one is receiving fish which have a high probability of arriving with either or both of these problems, they should treat proactively during quarentine.
But I leave it to readers to decide if I was guilty of promoting ignorance because I tell folks not to listen to bad advice. Or if implying that quarentining new fish was not a good idea nor needed was essentially giving bad advice.
Snazy, please. It is not a clash of opinions. Either it is or it is not a good idea to quarentine. Either it is or it is not a good idea to treat fish proactively under certain conditions.
Above here are your exact words:
So please then do not post a few hours later:
You cannot have it both ways. But please explain what point you were trying to make for readers in your first post? It seems to me that you were intimating that introducing fish (not bothering to mention where or how they come to someone) without treating them for anything or putting them through Q works just fine. I see no other reason for making a point of saying that. And nowhere in that original post did you say quarentining is a good idea but doing it is a personal choice? Had you I would not have reacted the way I did. Had I not called you on it, you would never had said a thing along those lines.
It appears you seem to have little or no experience with receiving fish which a scant few week before were in the wild. While I do not receive multiple boxed with 100s of fish, I have gotten wild ones with some regularity over the years.
I will try to explain why one proactively treats fish that came from the wild or from large scale suppliers who often have many wilds mixed in their systems.
1. The parasites and worms one encounters with imports are not commonly found in tanks but are common in the wild. There is almost a guarantee they will arrive in country carrying these things. Any decent importer knows to treat right away. Before these things can potentially run rampant, they go after them. The bigger problem is not that they fail to treat but rather that they move the fish out before the proper full course of treatment can be completed. It usually requires multiple treatments spaced a week or two apart. The meds they use are the same meds I buy online, so off th cycber-shelf.
2. The savvy fish keeper being aware of number 1 above also has meds on hand for treating the same things. Many of us will do another proactive round of such treatments because so often it has proven to be the wisest course. Once this is done th next step is to deal with anything of a bacterial nature.
3. The fish go into bare bottom tanks which can be monitored for expelled dead worms and for white tiny poops etc. This is one of the best ways to head off wasting disease which may not show itself for some time after fish have gone into the tanks of hobbyists.
4. As mentioned above these meds are pretty safe and can be overdosed to some degree without worry.
Please do not quote Charles Harrison, without sourcing it for folks to see. The Flubendazole info above comes from the following source http
/www.inkmkr.com/Fish/FlubendazoleTreatment.pdf Incidentally, this is where I get my Flubendazole and Levamisole HCL and I have corresponded with Dr. Harrison.Snazy You needed to bring in combining the anti-parasite meds with anti-fungals or with antibiotics to come up with even a scrap of a reason that proactive treating might be a problem. But that is a different topic. It belongs under mixing medications and not in proactive treatments for internal parasites of worms.
And a lot of the reason certain places restrict the availability of medications for animals is they get used by people. Tertacycline, Erythromycin, Penicillin etc are cheaper as fish meds than as people meds. It is why my antibiotic med bottles state they are for fish use not human consumption. But that sure wont stop poor folks who can't afford or don't have a doctor let alone human meds.
You are absolutely correct when you say everyone is free to make "bad" decisions. Failing to quarantine fish is never a good decision ahead of time. It only becomes a good decision retroactively because of good luck. I do not care how long you acclimate a fish nor how clean and healthy your tank is, if the fish arrives sick, it will not be cured by these things. For example, Ich will not vanish this way, columnaris will not vanish this way, wasting disease will not vanish this way, callamanus will not vanish this way. Neither worms nor internal parasites will vanish that way. As long as one is receiving fish which have a high probability of arriving with either or both of these problems, they should treat proactively during quarentine.
But I leave it to readers to decide if I was guilty of promoting ignorance because I tell folks not to listen to bad advice. Or if implying that quarentining new fish was not a good idea nor needed was essentially giving bad advice.
Come on TTA. It's too late to argue but just because I've introduced fish without quarantining doesn't mean I am against it totally.
Please stop taking sentences out of context. That's what I said:
"Honestly, I've introduced non-treated fish without quarantine numerous times without infecting my tanks with anything. Pre-treating means nothing. Taking care of proper acclimating and introducing to a healthy enviroment with no stressors is everything."
My statement above unfortunately has the word quarantine in it. I should have used the word "medicating" as that's what I meant. It was a response to ech0's comment just above it who explained why he medicated fish once. But you chose to catch on to something else and start a 10 000 word debate about your exhausting quarantine methods.
And besides, I totally get it that you like to keep wild caught fish. You've posted that numerous times. I don't tend to buy wild caught fish myself so I expressed why some people definately need to employ quarantining without going into details. Everyone has a reason for that but not everyone has a reason to medicate fish while they are in quarantine.
But to say that " I cannot have it both ways" is just ignorant and uninformed. Is it so hard for you to believe that if I ever do introduce a fish from the wild or any wild critter into my tank, I'll quarantine as well for the simple reason that these fish have grown to be immune/not immune to totally different diseases compared to tank raised fish? The same applies to releasing tank raised fish into the wild and unleashing diseases previously not common for the wild enviroment...If I ever suspect a fish to be sick I'd do that too. If I am buying from a suspicious place I'd quarantine too.
However, I expressed a point about medicating fish not quarantining fish. Unfortunately it got mixed up as sometimes both go hand in hand and I substitued one word for the other.But the topic here isn't about quarantining but medicating.
On another hand if your fish happen to be arriving so sick, maybe improve your source, unless you are catching them yourself?
Also, maybe your quarantine tanks aren't good enough for those particular fish and you are getting stress/envoroment related disease outbreaks which you think are prealigned and come from the fish instead? I can go on and speculate over your techniques too but that's ingorant too from my side....
All wild caught fish here go through a quarantine and treatment as well, but by the time they come to the buyer they are in perfect condition and free of possible infectious diseases. Because of that they carry quite a price tag too.
And I am really not enjoying your type of logic to which there's either a black or a white answer. I think sometimes the answer is multicoloured.
And fish naturally can have internal parasites that don't affect their well being or infect others. Fish can become immune to certain stuff, even ich, which has been seen in guppies the last time I checked. Fish can overcome a disease if noticed early and the trigger of the disease is removed, depending on the stage and type of disease. Unfortunately people rush into bying meds first, blame the fish shop they bought the fish from, blame forums, etc.., before they analyze their own doings and stop keeping fish in enviroments that trigger diseases. I am not saying I haven't done it myself, hence I've build an opinion over my own experience.
Please stop taking sentences out of context. That's what I said:
"Honestly, I've introduced non-treated fish without quarantine numerous times without infecting my tanks with anything. Pre-treating means nothing. Taking care of proper acclimating and introducing to a healthy enviroment with no stressors is everything."
My statement above unfortunately has the word quarantine in it. I should have used the word "medicating" as that's what I meant. It was a response to ech0's comment just above it who explained why he medicated fish once. But you chose to catch on to something else and start a 10 000 word debate about your exhausting quarantine methods.
And besides, I totally get it that you like to keep wild caught fish. You've posted that numerous times. I don't tend to buy wild caught fish myself so I expressed why some people definately need to employ quarantining without going into details. Everyone has a reason for that but not everyone has a reason to medicate fish while they are in quarantine.
But to say that " I cannot have it both ways" is just ignorant and uninformed. Is it so hard for you to believe that if I ever do introduce a fish from the wild or any wild critter into my tank, I'll quarantine as well for the simple reason that these fish have grown to be immune/not immune to totally different diseases compared to tank raised fish? The same applies to releasing tank raised fish into the wild and unleashing diseases previously not common for the wild enviroment...If I ever suspect a fish to be sick I'd do that too. If I am buying from a suspicious place I'd quarantine too.
However, I expressed a point about medicating fish not quarantining fish. Unfortunately it got mixed up as sometimes both go hand in hand and I substitued one word for the other.But the topic here isn't about quarantining but medicating.
On another hand if your fish happen to be arriving so sick, maybe improve your source, unless you are catching them yourself?
Also, maybe your quarantine tanks aren't good enough for those particular fish and you are getting stress/envoroment related disease outbreaks which you think are prealigned and come from the fish instead? I can go on and speculate over your techniques too but that's ingorant too from my side....
All wild caught fish here go through a quarantine and treatment as well, but by the time they come to the buyer they are in perfect condition and free of possible infectious diseases. Because of that they carry quite a price tag too.
And I am really not enjoying your type of logic to which there's either a black or a white answer. I think sometimes the answer is multicoloured.
Columnaris and certain types of "wasting disease" are envormental/related to bad water quality. I guess your fish came from a dirty river then?
And fish naturally can have internal parasites that don't affect their well being or infect others. Fish can become immune to certain stuff, even ich, which has been seen in guppies the last time I checked. Fish can overcome a disease if noticed early and the trigger of the disease is removed, depending on the stage and type of disease. Unfortunately people rush into bying meds first, blame the fish shop they bought the fish from, blame forums, etc.., before they analyze their own doings and stop keeping fish in enviroments that trigger diseases. I am not saying I haven't done it myself, hence I've build an opinion over my own experience.
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