Oh Hell. Maybe This Is Why My Cycling Isn't Going Too Well?

[tibby25731]

Hi

Some of you will have already read my posts. I'm fish-in cycling, due to stupidness rather than choice. I lost half my fish a few weeks ago to white spot. I successfully treated the rest of the tank and they seem OK. At this point I got an API master test kit and found my ammonia levels were at 4. I took advice from the forum and did a huge water change, and then started doing 25% or more twice a day until the level came down. it swings between 0.25 and 1.0 at the moment and I am still water changing.
When I was treating the white spot, I removed what I thought was a carbon sponge from my filter. I am using a Tetratec Easy Crystal system, which is a small black sponge and a big green and white sponge.
Well here is what it looks like, i managed to track this down online.,... [URL="http/www.tetra.de/tetra/go/F9663E2D7E96C...3F5B/?lang_id=2"]http/www.tetra.de/tetra/go/F9663E2D7E96C...3F5B/?lang_id=2[/URL] . So it appears I have removed the biological filter, thus removing any bacterias I may have had at any point..... (took this out about 2 weeks ago)I still have the main green and white filter sponge in, plus I have a sponge of donated media in the compartment where the biological media would be. WHERE DO I GO FROM HERE?
I am thinking, put the biological filter sponge back in, after rinsing it in boiling water first, adn then rinsing in tank water, as this has been sat in a spare bucket for weeks. But there won't be room for the main filter sponge and the donated media. Which do i keep? I am presuming the donated media, but what if the main sponge now has a live colony of bacterias? I want to keep the best possible thing in there. The donated media was put in on Thursday. I may be able to squeeze both filter sponges in one compartment but I don't want to make the filter run badly or anything,,,, help! What now? As you may or may not be aware, I am away from morning of 21st March until evening of 24th march and am desperate to cycle the tank asap as I have no-one who i can ask to do any water changes whilst I am away. Suggestions anyone?

 

[Nim]

Hello,

Firstly, I am not an advocate of treating a cycling tank for any medications apart from water conditioners, melafix or salt. Anything else can disrupt the cycle.
Secondly, White spot was probably due to the stress of cycling than anything else and it is not something to get alarmed about. Raising the water temperature to 31 degrees usually does get rid of white spot in 3-4 days but it may again not be a good idea while cycling.
Thirdly, Bacteria not only live in the filter media but also in the gravel and any surface in the tank including ornaments and glass. Though 80% probably live in filter media, 18% in the substrate and the remainins elsewhere (dont count me for the figures as I made them up for assumption).

SO taking out the biological filter has resulted in disruption of the cycle. The good news however is that the bacteria are still there in the tank though in smaller quantities and adding the media back will certainly help stabalize the mishap. If the media has been dried, then it is unlikely that there will be any bacteria in there but the additional surface area for the bacteria to grow on will make them spread much quicker.

Stop feeding the fish and add the extra sponge to the filter back and do not remove the carbon. The carbon also holds bacteria and you will yet again disrupt the cycle by doing so.

I would also slow down the water changes to see how the tank is cycling. If ammonia or nitrite tend to creep too high (over 1ppm) then do a small water change but personally, I would still refrain from it for a week to give the tank and the bacteria a chance to stabalize and spread on the re-added media.

Be patient, dont feed for a week and if you do, do it very slowly and very sparingly until the cycle is complete. Panic is one of the worst thing to happen when starting up a tank as it makes you do things that should never be done.

Nim

 

[tibby25731]

OK, so I will replace the biological filter media, and will move the donated media out from the front of the filter and into the back of the filter. Did you look at the diagram of the filter I have? The donated media is where the biological media should be, but I will replace the biological media and move the donated media to the back of the filter where the water flows up. I'll refrain from feeding but I do need to put in bloodworm twice a week for my dwarf frog and the fish will inevitably eat some of this too. Is it really OK not to feed for this long? I will feel terrible but if thats what it takes.... I'll also slow down on water changes and only change if the ammo reaches 1ppm or if I ever get nitrite readings! (it seems to be taking forever!).
Does anyone else have anything to add on this?

 

[Nim]

I cannot say about the dwarf frog as I would have no clue but fish can certainly survive without food for more than a week. even 2 or more sometimes. Blood worms are not a good cycling food either high in protien which results higher ammonia.

I could not see the giagram of the filter as the link just took me to the tetra home page

Nim

 

[tibby25731]

Oh no, I did not check that the link took you to the right place! So sorry. Go to the homepage. On the left are some categories. Select Aquarists, Tropical, Tetra AquaArt aquariums. To the right, of this menu you will then have some further selections, choose EasyCrystal filter technology. This will show you the diagram!
I'll post in the right section to find out how long the frogs can go without food... only other solution is to pop the frogs into a net to feed them, they won't be too impressed!

 

[Nim]

Dont think that filter would have enough surface area for biological bacteria. I could be wrong as the only similar type of filter I have ever used is a hang on back eheim which is good for keeping the water clear but offers very little in biological filtration.

You can move the biological filter media anywhere after the coarse filter media so that should be ok.

Sorry I cannot suggest anything more on this type of filter so others may be able to help out better. This will eventually cycle your tank but the reason why it is taking so much time is probably because of such a small media section for the bacteria to settle on coupled with other issues I mentioned above.

Nim

 

[tibby25731]

Anyone else got anything to add?

 

[tibby25731]

Right, here is what I have done. Ammo tested just above 1 so did a 50% water change. Have replaced 'biological' filter media in front of filter (see diagram on Tetra website!) Behind this is squashed the donated filter media. And behind this again in the main sponge. So the donated media is in between the 2 filter sponges I am meant to have in this filter. And behind these sponges is water in the filter, which has filtered in. I take it this is all OK?? It may slow the filter down a little I guess as there is an extra layer of sponge to go through but I think this should be OK.... the water seems to be flowing as normal.
I will slow down feeding of fish to a small amount every other day, it breaks my heart even to do this, it seems so wrong to me! But I understand I need to slow down ammo production a little whilst things get moving. hopefully I will start to see some results soon, since the donated media has been in for 4 days now... fingers crossed! Any idea how long it may take for me to see anything? Am still waiting to see nitrites, not seen any yet... but I guess the ammo needs to start reducing first.

Thanks everyone for the help!

 

[backtotropical]

Secondly, White spot was probably due to the stress of cycling than anything else and it is not something to get alarmed about. Raising the water temperature to 31 degrees usually does get rid of white spot in 3-4 days but it may again not be a good idea while cycling.

The whitespot will almost certainly be due to the cycling as the ammonia is at 4ppm which is lethal for fish. I don't think that saying that this is nothing to worry about is strictly good advice. Whitespot can wipe out the entire tank in just a couple of days if untreated. Ammonia poisoning even quicker.

Thirdly, Bacteria not only live in the filter media but also in the gravel and any surface in the tank including ornaments and glass. Though 80% probably live in filter media, 18% in the substrate and the remainins elsewhere (dont count me for the figures as I made them up for assumption).

It's closer to 98% in the filter media and 2% elsewhere (unless an undergravel filter is being used).

I would also slow down the water changes to see how the tank is cycling. If ammonia or nitrite tend to creep too high (over 1ppm) then do a small water change but personally, I would still refrain from it for a week to give the tank and the bacteria a chance to stabalize and spread on the re-added media.

Whilst killing the fish? This advice is terrible. Water changes actually speed up the cycle. This thread may enlighten you somewhat on the subject. Would you care to expand on exactly what you mean by letting the bacteria stabalize?

Keep up the water changes and do as many as is required to keep ammonia and nitrite below 0.25mg/l. This will give your fish the best chance. Cutting back on water changes is an invitation for another bout of whitespot and / or more deaths.

Good luck

BTT

 

[tibby25731]

Thanks BTT! I will go back to what I was doing originally then, with daily water changes to keep the ammo down, and testing ammo and nitrite too. I will feed the fish only every other day though, that will be my only change I think. Now I have put what Tetratec call my biological filter back, and I have my other filter sponge plus the donated media squished in between them, hopefully I will soon see results! The last thing I want to do is let the fish suffer.

 

[Nim]

Well everyone to their own I talk from my experiences that water changes can disrupt a cycle process and personally I I have had a few disasters and also heard about them on doing water changes while cycling and the period extending to over 2 months but then there may be too many variables again as there are with plenty of things.

I guess none of them is incorrect but if you want to blame me then please feel free to do so

And I did not say dont do any water change at all. if Ammonia/nitrite gets too high then do a water change.

By the word "Stabalize" I probably meant that the Bacterial colony needs to be stabalized especially after removing and re-adding filter media to the filter... which is obviously not a good thing during cycling.

Lastly, I would rather rely on my instincts then an excel spreadsheet if I ever need to cycle again.

Sorry for the confusion there. I will stay out of it.

Nim

 

[tibby25731]

Please don't be offended, I am glad you helped out too. But I have received advice from BTT on a few occasions and have decided to follwo his advice to stick to my original method. I have decided to feed the fish less though, which is not something I had thought about, so thank you for that advice, i think it will help.

 

[Nim]

I was not offended Tibbym Just the way things are put sometimes here is not very comfortable. There is almost always more than one way to do a thing and sometimes one is better then other and somtimes not. Really depends which side of the boat you are sitting on

Nim

 

[backtotropical]

Sorry if my post made you feel uncomfortable, Nim. That was not the intention.

The advice you gave was wrong and i would like if someone would correct bad advice given to me before i act on it. It's nothing personal.

Water changes don't delay a cycle, and yes maybe others have reported a delay, but there are so many factors involved which your average aquarist might not even know about, never mind be able to measure.

The link i posted isn't just a spreadsheet, but the results of a scientific experiment carried out by a scientist who we are lucky enough to have as a member on here. It's your choice whether to rely on the information or not, but i can say for sure that its more scientifically accurate than relying on one's instinct.

You are correct that there is always more than one way to do things and that sometimes one way is better and sometimes not. However, in this case, with ammonia and nitrite being lethal to fish in very small quantities, the less of these toxins in the water, the better. Therefore, to advise to cut back on water changes is the same as advising to try to kill the fish.

I don't see how there can be another side to that, it's fact. Many things are down to opinion, but this is purely factual.

My intention was to correct your advice which is incorrect and nothing else. Please take it as such.

Tibby, stick with it and you'll come out the other end unscathed. Keep us posted?

Cheers

BTT

 

[tibby25731]

Will do, BTT! Thank you for posting again. Did you look at the diagram of my filter on the link I posted? I am still a little worried that i have done things wrong by squashing my doanted filter media in between my 2 existing media..... yeah i do worry too much, i know! I just don't want to lose any of my fish! Fingers crossed I can get the tank cycled before 21st March.... otherwise I will have to do a big water change early that day, then another big change late on the 24th..... assuming my fish survive If I am stuck in this situation, i guess I am best off feeding them on the 20th, in the evening... give them chance to eat and poop!, then not again till my return on the 24th...... ? am planning for the worst!