Nutrafin C02 System

[loubega]

hi,

i have the nutrafin c02 system, i have had it running for one month. The first time i created the mixture it worked perfectly and had bubbles for about 2.5 weeks, i then gave the tank a rest for a bout a week with any C02 addition.

I now have come to use the second lot of sachets that came with the kit, i have created the mixture but after 24hr have very few bubbles, only when i shake the flask or move the tubing does it release bubbles

Any ideas why? is it a lack of pressure? not enough yeast? I just used the standard measurement, Sugar to first line, then added yeast and bi-carb then warm water to second line.

Also the ladder is quite dirty - in that algae and sediment has settled on it? should i clean it?

Finally, if i make my own mixture using a 2l bottle can i attach it to the system so i can have 2 bottles running at once? is this 2 much?

cheers

 

[SuperColey1]

I'm confused here.

You talk about sachets and the go on to ask if you are getting the sugar/yeast mix wrong!!!!

Are you using the sachets or the yeast mix.

My suggestion would be to either sell the sachets on ebay or dump them in the bin as they are near useless.

Secondly the mix is not 'good' for 2½ weeks. It may produce bubbles but you want peak and not the slowdown that you get therefore try to change the mix weekly.

It should be sugar to the first line then 1 MEASURED teaspoon of yeast (no good using a normal teaspoon as this could be any size) If you have to use a normal teaspoon go for a level teaspoon. Then lukewarm water up to the second line within the cannister.

The final answer is that in my experience the Nutrafin (400ml) cannister is much more productive than a 2Ltr coke bottle. It is absolutely air tight, no leaks takes a huge amount of pressure etc. Therefore if you have nutrafins stick to them, use the yeast and sugar mix though and forget about the sachets.

AC

 

[loubega]

I'm confused here.

You talk about sachets and the go on to ask if you are getting the sugar/yeast mix wrong!!!!

Are you using the sachets or the yeast mix.

My suggestion would be to either sell the sachets on ebay or dump them in the bin as they are near useless.

Secondly the mix is not 'good' for 2½ weeks. It may produce bubbles but you want peak and not the slowdown that you get therefore try to change the mix weekly.

It should be sugar to the first line then 1 MEASURED teaspoon of yeast (no good using a normal teaspoon as this could be any size) If you have to use a normal teaspoon go for a level teaspoon. Then lukewarm water up to the second line within the cannister.

The final answer is that in my experience the Nutrafin (400ml) cannister is much more productive than a 2Ltr coke bottle. It is absolutely air tight, no leaks takes a huge amount of pressure etc. Therefore if you have nutrafins stick to them, use the yeast and sugar mix though and forget about the sachets.

AC

cheers,

first of all im using the sachets that come with the system, 3 lots in total, i didnt say i was making my own mixture, i meant that when i mixed the sachets (i.e. the nutrafin own brand mixture) the first time it worked great.

I then mentioned that if i wear to add an additional bottle to the system with my own mixture (i.e not the nutrafin sachets but own bought yeast) could i add it to the system? Would it not create too much CO2?

is the reason there are minimal bubbles due to the sachet mixture?

any ideas on cleaning the ladder, or not?

 

[loubega]

bump

any help?

 

[SuperColey1]

The problem with these kits are they say 'will last for 4 weeks' and indeed it will but it will be 1 week of the 'brew' getting up to speed and then 1 week of the 'brew' at peak and then 2 weeks of the 'brew' diminishing.

This is useles for the planted tank because we need the CO2 level to be as consistent as possible. It is no good for the output to be up and down like this. The sachets are made with longevity in mind even though if they researched on any planted site they would be able to work out that this is no good for plants.

Plants adapt to the level of CO2 within the water. If the CO2 is changing then they stop growing and adapt themselves to the new level and then grow again. If the CO2 level is permanently changing then they hardly grow and therefore hardly take up nutrient and then our friend algae jumps in.

With the yeast recipe in the pinned artivle on the main planted section page it is made to last a week. The first 24 hours it wil build, the rest of the week will be peak andit will start to tail off at the end of the week. We don't want the tail off so we then empty and start again.

Using 2 kits means and alternating (whilst still changing each weekly just at different times in the week) means that while the first is at peak the other is starting. while the first starts to tail off the other is at peak and so on. This means that you always have like a dice. While 1 side says 1 the opposite says 6. While one side says 2 the opposite says 5. The opposite sides always add up to 7. In the case of the yeast setup it is impossible to keep the level constant as 1 mix will work slightly better than another BUT we can try and max out to 30ppm and make sure the plants have more CO2 than they need and therefore they are not needing to adapt to use lower levels.

The 2 will also push the pressure up a little and more than likely solve your diffuser problem.

The pressurised setups are the same. They give you a small bubble and tell you it will last X amount of months at 4 bubbles per minute. They are way off the mark as we run them at between 1 and 4 bubbles per second!!!

The ladder is super easy to clean. Get a bottle brush (the nylon wire type) give it a scrub under fresh water and put it back in. Much easier than cleaning the glass diffusers and apparently more efficient too. Just not as aesthetically pleasing!!

AC

 

[loubega]

The problem with these kits are they say 'will last for 4 weeks' and indeed it will but it will be 1 week of the 'brew' getting up to speed and then 1 week of the 'brew' at peak and then 2 weeks of the 'brew' diminishing.

This is useles for the planted tank because we need the CO2 level to be as consistent as possible. It is no good for the output to be up and down like this. The sachets are made with longevity in mind even though if they researched on any planted site they would be able to work out that this is no good for plants.

Plants adapt to the level of CO2 within the water. If the CO2 is changing then they stop growing and adapt themselves to the new level and then grow again. If the CO2 level is permanently changing then they hardly grow and therefore hardly take up nutrient and then our friend algae jumps in.

With the yeast recipe in the pinned artivle on the main planted section page it is made to last a week. The first 24 hours it wil build, the rest of the week will be peak andit will start to tail off at the end of the week. We don't want the tail off so we then empty and start again.

Using 2 kits means and alternating (whilst still changing each weekly just at different times in the week) means that while the first is at peak the other is starting. while the first starts to tail off the other is at peak and so on. This means that you always have like a dice. While 1 side says 1 the opposite says 6. While one side says 2 the opposite says 5. The opposite sides always add up to 7. In the case of the yeast setup it is impossible to keep the level constant as 1 mix will work slightly better than another BUT we can try and max out to 30ppm and make sure the plants have more CO2 than they need and therefore they are not needing to adapt to use lower levels.

The 2 will also push the pressure up a little and more than likely solve your diffuser problem.

The pressurised setups are the same. They give you a small bubble and tell you it will last X amount of months at 4 bubbles per minute. They are way off the mark as we run them at between 1 and 4 bubbles per second!!!

The ladder is super easy to clean. Get a bottle brush (the nylon wire type) give it a scrub under fresh water and put it back in. Much easier than cleaning the glass diffusers and apparently more efficient too. Just not as aesthetically pleasing!!

AC

AC,

fantastic response! just what i needed!

Think i will pop to tesco's later and buy some yeast and start the cycle again, do you reccomend this? Dont think i will try to two going just yet....hopefully just master getting one to work efficently.

You were spot on when you mentioned alage stepping in, i never had a problem with algae but now i havent had the nutrafin system working properly a few of the swords and java fern have hair algae growing on them,

Think i will try the tactic you mentioned of one week cycles....

cheers

 

[SuperColey1]

Yep I would pop to tescos. I would get a DIY started too. Not meaning started on the production front. more a case of getting it put together so that if you need to use some silicon around the top then you can leave it for 3-4 days and let it cure.

With the Nutrafin it is simple. sugar to the first mark in the cannister. add 1 level teaspoon of yeast (just a bit less is best IMO) then add lukewarm water to the second mark in the cannister. seal it up, put your finger over the hole and give it a good shake. then connect it up.

AC

 

[loubega]

Yep I would pop to tescos. I would get a DIY started too. Not meaning started on the production front. more a case of getting it put together so that if you need to use some silicon around the top then you can leave it for 3-4 days and let it cure.

With the Nutrafin it is simple. sugar to the first mark in the cannister. add 1 level teaspoon of yeast (just a bit less is best IMO) then add lukewarm water to the second mark in the cannister. seal it up, put your finger over the hole and give it a good shake. then connect it up.

AC

Ac,

cheers for the advice going to make up the new mixture this weekend? Is a check valve a piece of equipment that stops the mixture going back into the tank? Also what is a bubble counter? ( i presume its not as simple as just something that counts bubbles lol??)

The nutrafin kits are only 15 quid at my LFS so might be tempted to just get another set, then i can have 2 nutrafin cannsiters set up (you said these were better than bottles as they dont leak etc....) would i then just need a T-valve to connect both?

cheers

 

[SuperColey1]

You got the check valve the wrong way round. It is in effect a one way valve so it lets things past one way but not the other.

If we put it in to stop the mix getting into the tank then it would also stop the CO2. We use it the other way round to let the CO2 through and stop tank water siphoning back into the CO2 equipment.

To stop the mix getting into the tank its all about getting the mix right. If you notice it pushing too far then reduce the water in the mix a little. if it froths out the top then reduce the yeast a little. Keep an eye on it and once you get the mix right then stick to it. Better to have more bottles with less mix than less bottles and a mess.

A bubble counter is a must have with DIY and a useful item on pressurised.

It is exactly as you say...it counts bubbles, however with DIY you get a notty mess at the end of the CO2 line within the tank. With a bubble counter it will collect the 'snot' and therefore you don't get it all over the diffuser.

Secondly if you were to have mix travelling up the line it will collect in the bubble counter giving you some extra time to react to the problem. You can also of course count how many bubbles per minute/second it is producing.

Here is a link to a DIY setup where you can see how the bubble counter fits in:
http/www.qsl.net/w2wdx/aquaria/diyco2.html

When I meant the Nutrafins don't leak I meant they are made to take huge pressure and that the screw top/nipple combo is less likely to leak than hose through a hole in a lid if you know what I mean.

Once you get to the point where you are thinking of buying more CO2 kits then I think its time to start saving for pressurised. Fair enough doing the DIY route to save money but when pressurised costs under £100 then spending £15 a throw on Nutrafins sems a bit of a waste to me!!.

I would get a 2 way gang valve rather than a T piece because then before you remove 1 cannister you can close the valve to it and keep the pressure from the other. When you put the cannister back give it 15 minutes then re-open the valve. If you use T-pieces you will lose the pressure from the cannister that is running when you do your change and then it will have to rebuild the pressure. It may also lose a lot of its power.

Think of a bottle of Coke. When you first open it there is emmense pressure within it, hence the hiss as gas esacapes when you open it. After you've opened it you never get the seal again and therefore the coke goes flat.

AC

 

[loubega]

You got the check valve the wrong way round. It is in effect a one way valve so it lets things past one way but not the other.

If we put it in to stop the mix getting into the tank then it would also stop the CO2. We use it the other way round to let the CO2 through and stop tank water siphoning back into the CO2 equipment.

To stop the mix getting into the tank its all about getting the mix right. If you notice it pushing too far then reduce the water in the mix a little. if it froths out the top then reduce the yeast a little. Keep an eye on it and once you get the mix right then stick to it. Better to have more bottles with less mix than less bottles and a mess.

A bubble counter is a must have with DIY and a useful item on pressurised.

It is exactly as you say...it counts bubbles, however with DIY you get a notty mess at the end of the CO2 line within the tank. With a bubble counter it will collect the 'snot' and therefore you don't get it all over the diffuser.

Secondly if you were to have mix travelling up the line it will collect in the bubble counter giving you some extra time to react to the problem. You can also of course count how many bubbles per minute/second it is producing.

Here is a link to a DIY setup where you can see how the bubble counter fits in:
[URL="http/www.qsl.net/w2wdx/aquaria/diyco2.html"]http/www.qsl.net/w2wdx/aquaria/diyco2.html[/URL]

When I meant the Nutrafins don't leak I meant they are made to take huge pressure and that the screw top/nipple combo is less likely to leak than hose through a hole in a lid if you know what I mean.

Once you get to the point where you are thinking of buying more CO2 kits then I think its time to start saving for pressurised. Fair enough doing the DIY route to save money but when pressurised costs under £100 then spending £15 a throw on Nutrafins sems a bit of a waste to me!!.

I would get a 2 way gang valve rather than a T piece because then before you remove 1 cannister you can close the valve to it and keep the pressure from the other. When you put the cannister back give it 15 minutes then re-open the valve. If you use T-pieces you will lose the pressure from the cannister that is running when you do your change and then it will have to rebuild the pressure. It may also lose a lot of its power.

Think of a bottle of Coke. When you first open it there is emmense pressure within it, hence the hiss as gas esacapes when you open it. After you've opened it you never get the seal again and therefore the coke goes flat.

AC

AC,

once again cheers for the reply.

The bubbles have started to appear now so have decided to leave this one running for about a week (this is the sachet mix), have started to make a second cannister out of a coke bottle, and have bought my yeast and sugar for the mixture.

Im not very up-to-date with all the valves etc...but am going to give it a go, i can only learn from my mistakes.

Could i technically have 2 ladders? so instead of having 2 cannisters (one nutrafin and one DIY) rigged up to one ladder, i could just have one cannister to one ladder? is this suitable? I have a 125l tank so could have a diffuser at each end?

cheers

 

[SuperColey1]

I really would suggest ditching the sachets. Its many years since they were discovered to be far too weak a mixture!!! Yeast and sugar is much better once you get your mix right.

I see you are in the UK. Pets@Home sell gang valves for £1.50 ish.

However if you want to put 2 ladders in then yes of course you can and you won't need a gang valve for this. You would however need to make 2 bubble counters and have 2 check valves etc.

The main reason people use bottles linked together is firstly so that they only have to use 1 diffuser and also if they are using glass ones to get higher pressure but it is fine to have as many ladders in there as you want

AC

 

[loubega]

I really would suggest ditching the sachets. Its many years since they were discovered to be far too weak a mixture!!! Yeast and sugar is much better once you get your mix right.

I see you are in the UK. Pets@Home sell gang valves for £1.50 ish.

However if you want to put 2 ladders in then yes of course you can and you won't need a gang valve for this. You would however need to make 2 bubble counters and have 2 check valves etc.

The main reason people use bottles linked together is firstly so that they only have to use 1 diffuser and also if they are using glass ones to get higher pressure but it is fine to have as many ladders in there as you want

AC

AC,

The sachet i use is only the yeast one, i dont add the stabiliser as my water is v hard, i then just use granulated sugar..

next time i will use my bought yeast.

I dont use a bubble counter at the moment with my nutrafin cannister do you think i should def make one? even if i dont use my DIY cannister?

Will pop to P@H at lunch and look for some gang valves, and check valves

 

[SuperColey1]

I would definately make a bubble counter for several reasons:

1 - The 'snot' that appears at the end of the CO2 hose within the tank will be eradicated. this 'snot' will be in the bubble counter instead.

2 - It will allow you to see the bubble rate (which you can already see on the ladder of course )

3 - If the mixture does for any reason start to climb the hose then the bubble counter will collect it and therefore will give you more time to disconnect.

You only need the gang valve if you are going to join 2 to 1 ladder. If you are happy to have 2 ladders then use 2 ladders.

AC