Nitrite Off The Scales (Api Test)

[rodders666]

Hi,
Tank is cycling well, I'm just after some conformation (reassurance).

I have been using ammonia to cycle a tank for the first time with my own test kit, I usually use the fish food method and ask lfs to check water).

I am at the point where Nitrite is clearly over 2ppm and ammonia under .25 and adding more ammonia to bring back to 3ppm.

I reas that if an API Nitrite test turn purple as soon as you add the liquid it means it's off the scales, and this is what I am getting. I am concerned as the ammonia is zero, and when I add more it's zero again (well) within 24 hours. I am lately just adding 'snack' ammonia amounts as I have added full amounts twice now. With the Nitrite reading not seeming to come down I am reluctant to add too much ammonia.

I added a 1/3 snack amount 16 hours ago, and ammonia is back to zero but nitrite is sky high.

What do I need to do now, just wait and keep checking nitrite, and do I still add snack of ammonia daily (or less frequently).

I do have nitrAte showing, this is reading about 10/15 at the moment.
Thanks.

 

[the_lock_man]

I would be inclined to give the snack ammonia every 2-3 days. Keep going like this for 10 days or so, and see whether the nitrite starts to fall.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

You could even go every 4-5 days for the snack while nitrite is off the scale.
 
 
If you added 3ppm of ammonia twice, then you have added 6ppm ammonia.  Each 1 ppm ammonia converts to about 2.7ppm nitrite.  So, you are close to the point where nitrite build up can stall the cycle, assuming you have had ZERO conversion of nitrite to nitrate.  You would be sitting at about 16ppm nitrite at the current time, this is perilously close to the danger zone. 
 
 
You are now adding 1ppm every 4-5 days.  If by the time you are ready to add your second snack, you don't have nitrite back on the scale... there are really only two options.  1) Do a 50% water change and bring the nitrite down.  This won't harm your cycle as the bacteria live on surfaces, not the water.  2) Do a dilution test for nitrite using RO/DI (distilled water available at the grocery store will work nicely for this as well).  Add an easily measured amount of tank water to a large container.  Add the exact same amount of distilled water to the container three times, and you have a 1/4 strength dilution of your tank water.  Do the nitrite test on that sample as usual, then multiply your results by 4.  If your resulting value is under 12, continue with the snacking.  If the resulting value is higher than 12, it would be a good idea to do a 50% water change to give yourself some cushion. 
 
 
More than likely if you spread your snack dose to every 4 days, you should come down enough to not 'require' the water change to clear some nitrites, but some cycles are slower than others.

 

[rodders666]

Thanks for the responses.
The last ammonia addition was yesterday (Tues) tea time ish, so I will do a test on Sat and see where it's up to and take it from there.

Cheers

 

[TwoTankAmin]

If I had a dollar for every time I have posted this, I would make Bill gates look poor.
 
The key to fishless cycling is ammonia, but the downfall of most fishless cycles is too much nitrite. Too much nitrite stalls a cycle and can kill off bacteria.
 
There is only one way to get too much nitrite, add too much ammonia. this can mean adding to large an amount and.or adding ammonia too frequently.
 
The weak spot in the fishless cycle is due to the shortcomings of the hobby test kits we use. They do not measure high enough to let us know when there is too much nitrite, the do not read at the level at which the damage starts to occur- over 16 ppm on an API (or similar type) test kit.
 
The next biggest problem with cycling is that the average fish keeper simply does not understand the bacteria involved, how they function and what they need. This translates to the mistaken notion that the bacteria need to have ammonia every day. They do not. And not getting ammonia every day will not kill them. In fact they can survive for weeks and months and remain viable without any ammonia at all.
 
The total number of ammonia doses (including a single snack dose) required to cycle most tanks is 5 or 6. There is no topping up, there are no multiple snack feedings, the directions in the article here could not be simpler in this respect.
 
There is basically only one way for people to have issues with cycling based on the article- change the directions for how much ammonia to add and when by increasing the amount and/or frequency. If one wishes to do this then you must be prepared to do proper diluted testing for nitrite on a daily basis.
 
What I want to know is where in the cycling article I have failed to make all of the above crystal clear and simple to understand. What have I done wrong that causes people not to follow the directions? Is the language too vague? Are the amounts and timing of the dosing not clear and easy to understand? Have I omitted relevant facts? If the article is not easy to understand and simple to follow, then I need to know as I will make the appropriate changes.
 
One last note on the ammonia to nitrite ratio. Based on the atomic weights Ammonia as NH4 is 18 while NH3 is 17. Since at the higher ratios one might have 20% NH3 and 80% NH4, that number would be 17.8. NO2 is 46. 46/18 = 2.555 while 46/17.8 = 2.584. Therefore 1 ppm of total ammonia might convert to 2.58 ppm of nitrite in a 8.5-9.0 pH tank. Were the conversion rate higher (as in 2.7 times) then the amount of the ammonia dosing would have to be less than 3 ppm to keep the cycle in the fail-safe range.

 

[rodders666]

K

 

[daizeUK]

What I want to know is where in the cycling article I have failed to make all of the above crystal clear and simple to understand. What have I done wrong that causes people not to follow the directions? Is the language too vague? Are the amounts and timing of the dosing not clear and easy to understand? Have I omitted relevant facts? If the article is not easy to understand and simple to follow, then I need to know as I will make the appropriate changes.

There is one thing that I have noticed causes confusion
 

 
 
If at any time you test and ammonia is under .75 ppm and nitrite is clearly over 2 ppm, it is time to add more ammonia. Add the same full amount as you did the first time. Now, begin to test the ammonia and nitrite levels every other day. (You should be seeing nitrate soon if you have the kit.)

 
The above is intended to be a secondary one-off dose of ammonia but some people are reading it that this is a repeatable dose every time the ammonia drops under .75 - so they keep adding it while they are waiting for nitrite to drop. 

 

[rodders666]

Thank you daizeUK.

That is exactly the reason I asked the question, it states IF AT ANY TIME, not saying it's a one off.

If you look at my original post is asked "What do I need to do now, just wait and keep checking nitrite, and do I still add snack of ammonia daily (or less frequently)?"

Unfortunately although the article by TTA is much appreciated they now seem to take offence when people ask for help. Must be stressful up there on that high horse. The auto response by them is to go into a 'educational rant' rather than simply answer the question. I see this on prettyuch every post questioning the process. It's a shame we're all not as superfantasticamazing as TTA.

I will leave it until weekend and see where the nitrite level is at, if needed I will do water change and continue.

Regards.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

The directions are in order there is something before and after that piece?
 
Continue testing every 3 days (Days 10, 13 etc). 
 
If at any time you test and ammonia is under .75 ppm and nitrite is clearly over 2 ppm, it is time to add more ammonia. Add the same full amount as you did the first time. Now, begin to test the ammonia and nitrite levels every other day. (You should be seeing nitrate soon if you have the kit.)
(Add the same full amount as you did the first time. Doesn't this mean this it the second addition?)
 
After the second ammonia addition, while waiting for nitrite to rise, peak and drop, the bacteria will need a maintenance feeding. When you get two consecutive ammonia readings of 0 ppm, give the bacteria a “snack” by adding 1/3 of the full amount. This “snack” should be needed somewhere between days 21 and 27 of the cycle.
(After the second ammonia addition, Even if it wans't clear in the first instruction is sure is one line down.)
 
After the maintenance feeding, whenever you test and ammonia is .25 ppm or lower and nitrite is clearly under 1 ppm, it is time to add a full ammonia dose again and test in 24 hours.
 
I can start out the directions by stating that for the average cycle a total of only 5-6 additions of ammonia are required on average. I can then give a number label to each one, i.e. Dose #1, Dose #2 etc.? I can state there only need be 1 maintenance feeding. ?
 
How is this

 
Ready – Set – Cycle
 
Day 1   Set up your tank with the décor etc. Fill it with dechlorinated tap water and add the filter and heater. Turn everything on and wait for the tank temperature to reach the desired 75 - 85 F range. Make sure the tank runs for at least a couple of hours no matter what. You should already know the parameters of your tap water and that they are in a proper range for cycling.
 
Please note, the average fishless cycle should require  a total of between 5 and 6 ammonia additions as decribed below.
 
Add the initial amount of ammonia (Dose #1). This should be an amount that produces a test kit reading of 3.0 ppm (1 ppm = 1 mg/l). Because of possible testing and experience issues, we strongly advise that fish keepers new to cycling do not exceed 3 ppm of ammonia. Too much ammonia and/or dosing too often will usually work against the process rather than helping it. You can use the dosing calculator found here Ammonia Calculator to determine the initial amount for a tank your size which should produce the recommended 3 ppm level. (Please read the Suggestions and Trouble Shooting section below on how to calculate the volume of your tank.)
 
Record the actual amount of ammonia you add for the initial full dose as it will serve as the base amount for calculating a later maintenance addition. To be sure the ammonia has time to circulate in the water, wait about 30 minutes after adding it to test the level in your tank to confirm it is 3 ppm.
 
Now comes the hard part- you need to be patient as mostly what you will be doing is waiting and testing and waiting some more.
 
Days 2 and 3    Do nothing.
 
Day 4               Test for ammonia and nitrite.
 
Days 5 and 6    Do nothing.
 
Day 7               Test for ammonia and nitrite.
 
Continue testing every 3 days (Days 10, 13 etc). 
 
If at any time you test and ammonia is under .75 ppm and nitrite is clearly over 2 ppm, it is time to add more ammonia (Dose #2). Add the same full amount as you did the first time. Now, begin to test the ammonia and nitrite levels every other day. (You should be seeing nitrate soon if you have the kit.)
 
After the second ammonia addition, while waiting for nitrite to rise, peak and drop, the bacteria will need a maintenance feeding (Dose #3). When you get two consecutive ammonia readings of 0 ppm, give the bacteria a “snack” by adding 1/3 of the full amount. This “snack” (Dose #3) should be needed somewhere between days 21 and 27 of the cycle. Only a single snack dose is needed.
 
After the maintenance feeding, whenever you test and ammonia is .25 ppm or lower and nitrite is clearly under 1 ppm, it is time to add a full ammonia dose (Dose #4) again and test in 24 hours.
 
If ammonia and nitrite both read 0 ppm, you are cycled. Do a large water change, be sure the water is the proper temperature, and add fish. The odds are this will not be the case quite this soon.
 
If ammonia and nitrite do not both read zero, continue to test daily. Whenever ammonia is again at .25 ppm or less and nitrite is clearly under 1 ppm, add the full amount of ammonia (Dose #5) and test in 24 hours. Follow this pattern of testing and adding (this would be Dose #6, 7 etc.) until both tests do read 0 ppm within 24 hours. The cycle should not take much longer to be completed and you may not need to go beyond Dose #6.

 

[daizeUK]

I think that, just as rodders666 said, it's the "If at any time" that is causing confusion.  It implies that this is something that will happen more than once, especially when emphasised in bold and italics.  The same misunderstanding happened back in this post http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/426677-fish-in-tank-cyclingshowing-the-big-three-what-now/ and has cropped up in other threads now and then.
 
I would advise something more like:
 
When the test results indicate that ammonia is under .75 ppm and nitrite is clearly over 2 ppm, add a second dose of ammonia.  Add the same full amount as you did the first time. Now, begin to test the ammonia and nitrite levels every other day. (You should be seeing nitrate soon if you have the kit.)

 

[Gruntle]

Perhaps a "typical" fishless cycle chart/timeline would be helpful. I copied this from one of my earlier threads, bearing in mind that I had some seeded media from an existing tank (so the start to when I first saw ammonia drop to below .75ppm is a lot shorter than in a "start from scratch" cycle - perhaps make the start date 2-3 weeks earlier?):
 
Here's what I've done so far (and with the text from the cycling article):
 
Add the initial dose of ammonia. This should be an amount that produces a test kit reading of 3.0 ppm
 
- 4th December: dosed the tank to 4ppm and did a water change to bring it back to 3ppm.
 
If at any time you test and ammonia is under .75 ppm and nitrite is clearly over 2 ppm, it is time to add more ammonia. Add the same full amount as you did the first time.
 
- 9th December: Ammonia was 0ppm (down from 1ppm the day before) and Nitrite was still 5ppm+. Dosed to 3ppm Ammonia (for a non-seeded tank this might take up to 3 weeks, mine was seeded with filter media from an existing tank)
 
Now, begin to test the ammonia and nitrite levels every other day.
 
After the second ammonia addition, while waiting for nitrite to rise, peak and drop, the bacteria will need a maintenance feeding. When you get two consecutive ammonia readings of 0 ppm, give the bacteria a “snack” by adding 1/3 of the full amount. This “snack” should be needed somewhere between days 21 and 27 of the cycle.
 
- 13 December: Ammonia 0 for the second test, or third consecutive day (the instructions say test every other day after the second full dose, so in effect two days between tests). I gave them a snack of 1ppm.
 
After the maintenance feeding, whenever you test and ammonia is .25 ppm or lower and nitrite is clearly under 1 ppm, it is time to add a full ammonia dose again and test in 24 hours. (I interpreted this as 2 days between doses)
 
- 16 Dec: 0 and 0. Dosed 3ppm Ammonia
- 17 Dec: 0 and 2. Nitrites still not 0 within 24 hours so waited another day
- 18 Dec: 0 and 0. Dosed 3ppm Ammonia
- 19 Dec: 0 and 2. Nitrites still not 0 within 24 hours so waiting another day
- 20 Dec: 0 and 0. Dosed 3ppm Ammonia
- 21 Dec: 0 and 2. Nitrites still not 0 within 24 hours so waiting another day
- 22 Dec: 0 and 0. Dosed 3ppm Ammonia
- 22 Dec: 0 and 2. Nitrites still not 0 within 24 hours so waiting another day
- 23 Dec: 0 and 0. Dosed 3ppm Ammonia
- 24 Dec: 0 and 0. Cycle complete
 
Just my 2c worth. I'm a bit particular in following instructions so I read the article every day before and after testing.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I wish you had reported your actual nitrite numbers. My bet here is that the not 0 for nitrites was likely a very small reading and you were in fact basically cycled earlier than you thought.
 
As for the snack dose there should be 3 days of reading 0: Day 1- 1st test reads 0, Day 2- No test, Day 3- 2nd test reads 0, add ammonia. So as you can see there are essentially 3 days of a 0 reading for ammonia, not 2. This assumes that  if ammonia is 0 on days 1 and 3 and no ammonia was added, that the reading not taken on day 2 would also have been 0.
 
You are correct about the numbers being different when bacteria is seeded at the outset. And this presents a problem in terms of how much this might affect the cycle. There is no way to know exactly how much bacteria one may have moved over. If you remove a filter sponge holding bacteria from a filter and cut it in half, you cannot assume that each hald hold 505 of the bacteria, it simply doesn't work like that.
 
There is no problem with seeing the effect of starting with some amount of ammonia bacs, ammonia goes down and we can see it happening. The problem is with the subsequent nitrite readings. because the nitrite bacteria normally have to wait for excess nitrite to start reproducing, they are behind the curve. And then the fact that they reproduce more slowly than the ammonia bacs means they take longer to get to "full strength." By seeding some number of the nitrite bacteria, the whole part of the process regarding nitrite readings is altered. The nitrite will not get as high nor take as long to come down.
 
Here is why this matters and why not knowing how much nitrite oxidizing bacteria is there from seeding complicates things. The second addition of ammonia come when ammonia levels have dropped and nitrite ones have appeared and risen. The reason that one should see nitrites at 2 ppm or above is to insure nitrite is indeed being produced. It acts as a double check re ammonia being converted. But if one has sufficient nitrite bacteria from seeding, that nitrite number may not reach 2 ppm. And if it doesn't, how can one following the directions meet the conditions for adding more ammonia? The cycling process does not work the same with and without seeding.
 
This becomes even more clear when one is dealing with planted tanks. In these and ammonia taken up by the plants gets used and no nitrite is produced nor is any nitrate. So you can add 3 ppm of ammonia and the next day have only 1 ppm of ammonia and 0 nitrite. As you can see this completely blows the basic cycling instructions right out of the water (excuse the pun).
 
The basic article here will work fine as it stands unless one alters things y seeding a tank and/or adding live plants. But given all the variables this involves, it makes it impossible to create simple step by step directions as almost every tank will be unique in this respect.
 
The best thing here is this thread serves to illustrate just how seeding a tank can and does accelerate a fishless cycle.
 
Gruntel- "Perhaps a "typical" fishless cycle chart/timeline would be helpful." There is such a chart in the article. I know because it took me a bunch of time to create it

 
 
Below is a chart illustrating what to expect in terms of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate during using this fishless cycling method. It will give you an idea of what test readings and time frames to expect.

 
Average Cycling Numbers
 
Ammonia will spike with each addition and then drop. It will drop faster with each addition. It should be under 1 ppm between days 9 and 12 of the cycle. It should be close to 0 ppm within 4 to 6 days after the second addition, and 0 ppm in 1 to 3 days after subsequent additions. 
 
Nitrite will appear in about a week and rise to its peak somewhere between days 15-21 of the cycle. Most hobby test kits will not test this high. It will decline more rapidly than it built up and can be well under 1 ppm by days 25 to 31. It should reach 0 ppm between days 35 to 40 of the cycle.
 
Nitrate should appear soon after nitrite does and will rise steadily until the end of the cycle. It should peak at between 35 and 45 ppm (plus any ppm of nitrate in your tap).
 
Some cycles can happen in a time frame shorter or longer than above, but these are exceptions not the average. While one's actual days may vary from the chart above, the pattern of one's results should still be similar.