Nitrifying Bacteria

[dalllas71]

After having spent the last 15 years or so without an aquarium, I'm looking to get another one started. I've quickly learned that much has changed about this hobby and much of it doesn't look so good.

My LFS told me that a product called Bio-Spira came out 7-8 years ago and that it offered some nitrifying capability but was sometimes hit and miss, perhaps because of compromised refrigeration or even just a weaker strain of nitrifying bacteria. Surprisingly, the owner warned me about other products that claim nitrifying ability but really contain not a single bit of true nitrifying ability. He mentioned Cycle and Stability as the two biggest failures at handling ammonia and nitrite while Bio-Spira was sometimes succesful but will soon be discontinued.

He did mention a new product he's just been contacted about called Superbac. He believes that it could be the real deal based on his discussion with whomever and, specifically, the bacteria they discussed (I honestly forget the long names). Apparently Superbac isn't available everywhere and I was wondering if anybody in these threads knew anything about it. I'm going to do more research on this and may follow up with the names of the bacteria to post for further discussion.

Thanks for any help on this.

 

[LosC519]

I wish LFS's would just sell pure ammonia and recommend fishless cycling. Never heard of SuperBac, sounds interesting though.

 

[Corleone]

Can't find any solid info on Superbac. If its refrigerated, it may work, but otherwise it's probably just dead bacteria in water. The problem with bottled bacteria is sometimes that it doesn't actually have the bacteria (or the right ones), but even good products that could work may be exposed to extremes of temperature or just sit on the shelf too long and the bacteria die.

Bio-Spira's not just hit and miss. IME, it's all or nothing - you get divine intervention or a kick in the wallet. You can try Bio-Spira or any bottled bacteria (Tetra SafeStart comes from another brand owned by the same company that Bio-Spira comes from, and supposedly has the same strains in it) as part of a fishless cycle, but don't trust them as an alternative. If it fails, which even the best might, you don't want to get dumped into a fish-in cycle, which is frustrating for you and dangerous to your fish.

 

[pastabake]

Bacteria don't just die when they run out of food. They can go dormant. So refrigeration isn't necessarily needed.

The most probable reason why these products don't work, apart from operator error, will be localised water chemistry. The same reasons why I among others manage to cycle in 21 days while others take much longer. Don't make the mistake in assuming that we all have exactly the same types and numbers of bacteria in our filters because the odds are that its a complex ecosystem.

The OP should take a look in the scientific section if they want to find out and discuss more about the bacteria.

 

[reefer_ron]

Pastabake is absolutely right on this. He's done his homework. Bacteria do not have to be refrigerated unless it's over-concentrated. Otherwise it doesn't. Your aquarium isn't refrigerated so that nips that theory in the bud. Yes, if bacteria aren't metabolizing it doesn't need to eat. The ONLY thing that will prevent these bacteria from working is poor handling.

If you're going to buy a living bacteria product make SURE that your LFS buys it direct from the dealer. If it's from distribution stay away. I've been using the Superbac for about a year now and is the only one that has worked every time for me. But they ship direct to dealers and they don't over-concentrate.

 

[dalllas71]

Thanks for all those replies and here's some info I've gathered and the contents I'll pass on after meeting with my LFS again today:

He showed me samples he just received yesterday of the Tetra Safe Start and Bio-Spira by Ocean Nutrition, apparently the new format for the Marineland Bio-Spira for fresh and saltwater which I learned was refrigerated. These new bottles contained clear, odorless fluid and even I'm aware that nitrifying bacteria, if living, should be reddish-brown and rather potent in smell. If the old Bio-Spira was real itself, why change it all up under different names under the same corporate umbrella ... UPG he said? I'm not trying that as I've never liked Tetra too much going back to the early 90's with my last aquarium.

The Superbac stuff contains nitrosomonas and nitrobacter for fresh and nitrococcus and nitrosococcus for salt. Dan told me that, in his experience, these are the top oxidizers of ammonia and nitrite in this particular bacteria family. Understanding that refrigeration is not necessary for this kind of bacteria, next step is visual appearance and odor at the very least. Apparently the difference between the Superbac and Bio-Spira cold is nitrite consumption, at least with respect to the bacteria contained in each. Could Superbac actually be real as a "shelf" product, as he put it?

My LFS gets it's first shipment of Superbac likely next week and I may try it unless it's just debunked prior. Dan seems pretty smart and his brother is actually a Ph.D in biology and so he's going on that along with his 25-plus years in the hobby.

Again, thanks for the replies and I'll keep it all in mind ... I'll post again when I've got something else.

 

[andywg]

Pastabake is absolutely right on this. He's done his homework. Bacteria do not have to be refrigerated unless it's over-concentrated. Otherwise it doesn't. Your aquarium isn't refrigerated so that nips that theory in the bud. Yes, if bacteria aren't metabolizing it doesn't need to eat. The ONLY thing that will prevent these bacteria from working is poor handling.

However, your aquarium has a constant supply of food (ammonia) and oxygen, both of which are limited in the bottle. My understanding is that the AOB and NOB do not have spore stages, so if they are not given oxygen and ammonia/nitrite then they are dying. By refrigerating BioSpira the metabolic rate is slowed to such that the supply of ammonia and oxygen within the bottle are enough to keep the bacteria alive until added to your tank.

The one potential thin in favour of the AOB and NOB is that while they are some of the slower bacteria to multiply, they are also somewhat slow to die providing they stay wet and have a supply of oxygen.

If you're going to buy a living bacteria product make SURE that your LFS buys it direct from the dealer. If it's from distribution stay away. I've been using the Superbac for about a year now and is the only one that has worked every time for me. But they ship direct to dealers and they don't over-concentrate.

One interesting point to note is that Superbac contains Nitrobacter bacteria. This is the bacteria which oxidises nitrite in waste treatment plants but NOT the bacteria which does that job in the home aquarium (there is some speculation that Nitrobacter are more prevalent where there is a higher amount of nitrite in the water, and Nitrospira is found where the level is lower). In your aquarium you will have a colony of Nitrospira bacteria (see various papers by Hovanec et al from the mid 1990s for further information, or look at the scientific threads further down the main board).

 

[Rooster]

Shear weight of numbers speak for themselves.... I know dozens of fish keepers, not ONE buys (or recommends) snake-oil bacteria "kick starters" !!!!
Even the shops "only stock it because it sells"

As Mr Scot used to say, "yer cannae change the laws of physics" - that goes for biology and chemistry too !!!!



Waste of money, in simple terms.

 

[pastabake]

The dormant stage for a bacteria is not necessarily a spore state, it really depends upon species. Some will go into what is basically a persistent vegetative state.

The main causes of death are (1) predator species i.e. Grazers (2) Poisons secreted by bacteria/fungi/actinomycetes (3) Environmental toxins.

So there is no reason that a bacteria couldn't be cultured and then sold in non-refrigerated containers.

There are though many reasons why inoculation doesn't work and wouldn't work even with a refrigerated stock.

Edit - It's interesting how so many people quote Hovanec yet don't seem to realise that he's the person behind BioSpira ... hxxp/www.petfishtalk.com/interviews/dr_hovanec/interview_one_and_only/one_and_only.htm ...

 

[waterdrop]

" It's interesting how so many people quote Hovanec yet don't seem to realise that he's the person behind BioSpira"

Personally I've always known he was involved in it but I don't think that makes his university articles any less interesting. Those are the only articles that seem to go at some of our questions quite directly. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he were involved in helping with a product but still felt that the jury was out on a lot of the important questions about our bacteria and the processes they are involved in.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[pastabake]

Hovanec is first and foremost an industry guy. I'm not quite sure what you mean by his university papers, I seriously doubt that he's ever been involved in 'pure' research outside of the industry angle ... or at least thats how his CV reads. I don't mean to imply that his work is any less valid.

Dr Hovanec has formed his own aquarium products manufacturing company called DrTim's Aquatics whose philosophy of "Science Based Solutions" forms the core of each product which is to bring real solutions based on real science to the hobby of tropical fish-keeping.

I don't think that he believes the jury is still out ... sure as a scientist he probably knows there is more to learn, but as a patent holder and company owner he must definitely believe that his product works. Either that or his ethics have to be called into question ...

 

[andywg]

Hovanec is first and foremost an industry guy. I'm not quite sure what you mean by his university papers, I seriously doubt that he's ever been involved in 'pure' research outside of the industry angle ... or at least thats how his CV reads. I don't mean to imply that his work is any less valid.

Dr Hovanec has formed his own aquarium products manufacturing company called DrTim's Aquatics whose philosophy of "Science Based Solutions" forms the core of each product which is to bring real solutions based on real science to the hobby of tropical fish-keeping.

I don't think that he believes the jury is still out ... sure as a scientist he probably knows there is more to learn, but as a patent holder and company owner he must definitely believe that his product works. Either that or his ethics have to be called into question ...

I'm sorry, are you doubting the peer reviewed papers? Perhaps you would like to provide some full scientific basis for why Hovanec is wrong, rather than an ad hominem attack on the man just because he earns a living? And what is 'pure' research? A large amount of research is undertaken with funding from private companies with the hope of finding a way of making money.

At the moment we have scientifically controlled experiments reported in scientific journals which are Hovanec's work. If there was such a flaw in what he was doing then there would be plenty of people discrediting his findings. If you would be prepared to post them (either here or in the scientific forum) I for one would be most interested in reading them.

 

[OldMan47]

I must agree with Andy on his thought. Scientific research is seldom funded for no particular reason which is why the papers that result are subjected to a peer review. The idea of the review is that if there is something amiss with the research, other people doing similar work are likely to be able to spot the inconsistencies. My wife does some original research and has been published in other areas than fish keeping and it amazes me the depth of review that her work gets before it gets published.

 

[rabbut]

RE; bacteria in a bottle...

Ammonia lack, die-off. In a thread, I think in the scientific forum, there is a paper quoted stating that after ammonia or nitrite runs out, the bacteria dies off at a rate of 5% a day. This gives your cultur a half-life (thie taken for the number of bacteria to half in number) arround one month. If the product when from manufacturer to custmer's tank within 6-12 months, it could theoretically work. If there is more that a few months between manufacture and purchace, you waste your money.

Oxygen lack, another paper, I think in the scientific section again, states that after oxygen runs out, our bacteria die-off at about 98% per day at room temperature, giving a half life of a few hours at the most. There is no oxygen going into these hermetically sealed bottles, so this will be your killer... Basically if they don't get from manufacturer to the customer's tank the same day, the product is useless...

I have never seen any papers quoting that there is a dormant state for our oxidising bacteria. If you can quote one such paper, I'd love to read it Without evidence to the contrary though, I'll have to assume that these products are useless. My own experience has backed-up my conclusion, as I have used many "bacteria in the bottle" products, and none have cut down cycle times from the norm witout such products being used.

All the best
Rabbut

 

[pastabake]

Duh! Perhaps you should read carefully before jumping to the wrong conclusion.

I don't mean to imply that his work is any less valid.

So where exactly is the ad hominem attack?
Pure research is what the 'research councils' in the UK for instance pay for. Research done without an ulterior motive other than to move knowledge forward. Sure there is a greater emphasis these days on making money out of research, but often this aimed at capitalisation on fortuitous breakthroughs rather than a direct attempt to research to make money.

I'll state it again just in case you found it hard to understand.

He [Hovonec] doesn't think the jury is out, he's taken out patents, formed a company and stated his reputation on a product called 'Once and Only'. My assertion was that if you doubt the efficacy of his product you are indeed questioning the ethics of the man! My personal belief is that his product does indeed work though I can think of a number of reasons why some people have problems with it.