Newbie

[rw_hyde]

Hello.. I got an aquarium for Christmas, read the "Quick Start" manual, bought some neat-looking fish, and now I need help. heh.

I've got a decently well-planted (plastic of course) 20 gallon tank with a hanging-off-the-back-filter-thing:
The water is well-water-- my area has limestone aquifers (alkiline) so the tap water is softened with some kind of softening salts. I think this may be causing the PH to rise?
Tests are yielding (ppm):
GH 25
KH 300
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20
Ammonia At least 1.0 (I can't tell; on the kit, should I match shades of color or intensity?)
PH At least 8.2 (off the chart)

I stocked it with:
1 juvenile silver angel
2 guppies
1 zebra danio


SO basically I have three questions:

I'm concerned about the PH, since it's WELL out of the angelfish's prefered range; although he does seem happy enough (of course, what looks perfectly happy to me could be mortally ill to an expert).
If I've understood my research correctly, the high PH could be caused by the soft water? Should I harden the water, even though the KH is so high? If so, should I do it now or should I wait for the tank to finish cycling?


That zebra danio is eating the male guppy's tail. He also likes to chase the female guppy around the tank. After I did some research I realised that he's just bored and needs more danios, but since the tank's cycling I didn't want to add more danios while ammonia is so high. Do you have any advise on what to do: either how to help the poor guppy, how to placate the danio, or whether to add more danios now, or later, or not at all?


Finally, I was wondering about stocking: I know the angelfish will eventually outgrow the tank (he's about the size of a penny right now), and I'm prepared to upgrade when the time comes. With that in mind, I'd like to get some neons; how many can get? If I have to get more danios for the quarrelsome one, how many should I/can I get? Is it possible to keep safe-sized schools of both neons and danios, plus a growing angelfish and two+ guppies in a twenty gallon tank?

Or do I have to return the danio?

Thanks in advance,
Ryan.

 

[Breeze7050]

I will help you with what I know. Unfortunately, I don't know a whole lot about cycleing with fish. Your ammonia is way to high to have fish in the aquarium. You will need to be doing daily water changes in order to keep those guys alive. I would highly recommend returning the angel he seems to be most at risk plus he won't fit in that tank when full grown. Danios are a hardier fish so since you've already started a "fish cycle" and danios need to be in schools, I would get 5 more of those for a total of 6 danios too cycle your water - again with the daily water changes and also feed just every other day at first.

As for your stocking thoughts... 9.5 out of 10 angels can and will eat neons! It's not a wise idea to mix these guys together unless you wait your angels to have an expensive treat every once i awhile! Ideally, no neons, keep the danios but get a large school of them and you may want to think about not doing guppy's either. Most importantly do you have males or females or both?? Just be sure to remember these breed like mad!!

You may want to look into a largi-ish school of danios, maybe some bottom fish ie corries or loaches and 1 or 2 centerpiece fish - I just don't think angels will work in that small of an aquarium. However there are a lot of other cool fish!! Check out the profiles and do some research! Maybe dwarf gouramis??

Hope at least some of this helped!! Best of luck and welcome to the boards!

 

[rw_hyde]

I will help you with what I know. Unfortunately, I don't know a whole lot about cycleing with fish. Your ammonia is way to high to have fish in the aquarium. You will need to be doing daily water changes in order to keep those guys alive. I would highly recommend returning the angel he seems to be most at risk plus he won't fit in that tank when full grown. Danios are a hardier fish so since you've already started a "fish cycle" and danios need to be in schools, I would get 5 more of those for a total of 6 danios too cycle your water - again with the daily water changes and also feed just every other day at first.

As for your stocking thoughts... 9.5 out of 10 angels can and will eat neons! It's not a wise idea to mix these guys together unless you wait your angels to have an expensive treat every once i awhile! Ideally, no neons, keep the danios but get a large school of them and you may want to think about not doing guppy's either. Most importantly do you have males or females or both?? Just be sure to remember these breed like mad!!

You may want to look into a largi-ish school of danios, maybe some bottom fish ie corries or loaches and 1 or 2 centerpiece fish - I just don't think angels will work in that small of an aquarium. However there are a lot of other cool fish!! Check out the profiles and do some research! Maybe dwarf gouramis??

Hope at least some of this helped!! Best of luck and welcome to the boards!

Thanks for your quick reply! How much ammonia should I be reading (I think I'm in the ammonia spike phase of the cycle)? Sounds like the feeding is a problem--I've been feeding about twice a day. I'll cut those and do some water changes. So you think it's okay to add those danios halfway through the cycle?

 

[Kyrielle]

1.0 is at the point where the ammonia is definitely irritating your fish and any higher and it will be deadly. Feed them less, because more food = more waste = more ammonia. Try to ensure that the fish are less stressed because when they are stressed, they excrete more ammonia from their gills. Ideally, your ammonia should read 0, but since you're cycling and it won't be 0 for a while, make it a goal to keep it under 0.5. (The same goes for nitrite when you hit that spike. Keep that as low as possible.) Best you can do I think is to do 50% or more water changes daily. You could also get some live plants to help handle the ammonia.

I know nothing about how to solve your stocking troubles, unfortunately.

 

[Breeze7050]

No prob, glad to be of help! How long have you had the fish in the aquarium?? A few hours, days, weeks? That info will help us out to see if you are spiking or not.
To help keep ammonia lower I would feed every other day! Hopefully some others will get on and give there more expert advice!

*EDIT* Not sure if it is a great idea to add the danios, but they are fairly hardy and if you drop the amount of feedings and keep up on your water changes, they should be okay!

 

[Kazuya73]

GH 25
KH 300


I'm concerned about the PH, since it's WELL out of the angelfish's prefered range; although he does seem happy enough (of course, what looks perfectly happy to me could be mortally ill to an expert).
If I've understood my research correctly, the high PH could be caused by the soft water? Should I harden the water, even though the KH is so high? If so, should I do it now or should I wait for the tank to finish cycling?

Umm,GH25 and KH 300;That is extremely hard water not soft.Soft water is less than 10 DKH if I'm not mistacken;If so ,then someone will correct me but I believe thats right.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

i'm hopeless with ph/gk/kh so can't help with that sorry but i can help with stocking.

to cycle with fish you actually need a decent proportion of your fish in there, i reckon about a thrid of your eventual total.

your total should be 20" of fish for a 20g tank.

so for now you need to get 6/7" of fish in your tank.

guppies and danio's aren't a very good mix tbh, the danio's can get very nippy with the guppies, even with friends it's fairly likely this behaviour will continue so you should choose between then two.

personally i would go with danio's, they're much hardier. guppies have been ridiculously inbred to produce the fancy tails and colours this has left them with a really weak gene pool and as such they easily contract diseases and can actually be pretty hard to keep becuase of this.

the angel's gonna need a bigger tank within about 6 months.... if you're not gonna be upgrading that soon then you should re-home the angel now.

so i would take the angel and guppies back, exchange them for 5 danio's and this would be much more sensible both for long term and for cycling your tank.

then once you've cycled your tank you can add another small shoal of fish.... say 6 tetra's or rasbora's... soemthing along those lines. give the tank a good few weeks to settle then you can either add something like a group of cories which are bottom feeder so would be out of the way of the rest of the fish, or a pair/trio of centerpiece fish like dwarf gourami's, ram's etc.

 

[rw_hyde]

UPDATE

I just wanted to update, thank you all for your help, and see if this post catches the attention of someone who could tell me how to answer/fix my chemistry problems.

I cut feedings down to a much smaller amount once every day or two, and the ammonia has leveled off to about 0.25-0.5 ppm.

I've the aquarium set up for about 16 days now, so this is normal, right?

I'm still deciding on the stocking, but I think I'll forget about the neons and get more danios. I'm definitely planning to upgrade a tank for the angelfish in a few months. Would a 29 gallon be good or should I get a 50 gallon?

Umm,GH25 and KH 300;That is extremely hard water not soft.Soft water is less than 10 DKH if I'm not mistacken;If so ,then someone will correct me but I believe thats right.

My measurements were in ppm; for GH 25 ppm = 1.4 dH, and for KH 300 ppm = 16.8 dH, I think [http/www.hagen.com/usa/aquatic/ghkhconvcalaction.cfm].
The LFS guy said just use hard water instead of softened water, but I'm afraid that'll make the water even more basic than it already is (at least 8.0).


Thank you very much!

Ryan

 

[ihasanzongi]

get the biggest tank that you can afford and will fit where ever your putting it once you get a 55 gallon you will want a 100 gallon then a 250 gallon ect ect

 

[Miss Wiggle]

to stock angelfish you need at least a 40g tank thats 18" deep, they get quite big

 

[rw_hyde]

to stock angelfish you need at least a 40g tank thats 18" deep, they get quite big

Okay, thanks. Can you think of any fish that would go well with the angelfish in that tank--preferably ones that would fit in the little tank I have now until I'm ready for the new one?

Thanks,
Ryan.

 

[willroo]

My dad had Angels and tetras in a community tank when i was young and didn't seem to have any problems with them eating the neons.


He also had kissing gourami, they are realy nice fish.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

to stock angelfish you need at least a 40g tank thats 18" deep, they get quite big

Okay, thanks. Can you think of any fish that would go well with the angelfish in that tank--preferably ones that would fit in the little tank I have now until I'm ready for the new one?

Thanks,
Ryan.

i think congo tetra's look really nice with angels, as do rainbows.... however they're both too big for your tank now, get the big tank before you stock it as you never know when your gonna have unexpected expenses and then you could be stuck with fish in a tank too small for them and no way to buy a bigger tank

My dad had Angels and tetras in a community tank when i was young and didn't seem to have any problems with them eating the neons.


He also had kissing gourami, they are realy nice fish.

it depends on the individual fish, generally if you get the angel really small it's less likely to eat the neons it's grown up with. however angels are cichlids and therefore they're all different and they're tempremental so while one may be fine, another won't. you can try it but you'll have to play it by ear and have a back up plan ready for if he gets hungry!!

Kissing gourami's are lovely, but they can get to 12"...... it's pretty rare that they're kept in tanks big enough for them. Dunno what the exact recommended size is but I'd hazard a guess around the 60-70 us gallon mark.