Newbie Fish Lover Needs Some Help Please :)

[barakuda]

Hi everyone,

we got a fish tank as a birthday gift a month ago and although I was at first a bit reluctant to the idea, I've now grown to love our new pets and take care of them. All was going well in the tank with a black moor (Fluffy) and a Shubunkin (Goldielocks!), until the latter - which was never active, always sad and still - left this world. It was at this time that I more actively started searching for info concerning good fish-keeping and realised the pet shop people were talking rubbish for most of the "advice" they gave me (same old story, I guess?)

We decided to get the black moor a new friend, given that the Shubunkin was never too keen to play with him. After some research, we decided on a Telescope goldfish, but couldn't find it anywhere. Instead, two days ago we brought him Susie, a beautiful Fantail goldie. I've noticed some strange behaviour in the tank and would really appreciate any information you may provide, so that I know if I'm doing something wrong or if everything is normal.

Here are some stats concerning the living environment:

- a 12 litre rectangular glass tank
- an Elite mini underwater filter (http/www.hagen.com/uk/aquatic/product.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=107&PROD_ID=01001300030401)
- two silk plants
- a shell
- about 1inch of gravel at the bottom
- food in pellets, 3 to 4 a day (2 per fish)
- 1/3 water change every 10 days and filter cleaning (with water from tank)

I still need to buy a gravel vacuum, because the amount of poop that's coming out of these two wee pets is extraordinary!

The first day, the black moor seemed to get very well along the new friend. They swam side-by-side and looked happy. Ever since yesterday, however, things changed:

- The black moor is mostly swimming at the top, whereas the Fantail at the bottom. This is problem, as the moor gets all the food and the Fantail doesn't seem to get a chance.
- The Fantail is chasing the black moor every time it seems to approach the territory at the bottom. I don't like that, I am really attached to Fluffy and don't want him bullied (I know I sound like a 10-year-old, but I prefer being honest!)
- The Fantail almost never reaches for the top of the tank, where the black moor is. When it does, the moor chases it back to the bottom.

To sum up, it seems that the two of them have established "territories" and I'm not a big fan of their ghettos! Do you think this is normal? Am I doing something wrong? Mind you, I like the Fantail but if something happens to the black moor both me and my partner will be distraught. Is it actually the black moor who's bulling the Fantail?

So complicated... I would appreciate even a line saying yes or no; I understand that you might not have time for this but believe me that any advice is greatly greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

 

[Truck]

firstly you will need to buy a 40 gallon tank and an external filter for the goldfish, as they are capable of getting to 6 inches+ and are massive waste producers!

 

[Loony Fish]

welcome to the forum,

but sorry, the only thing i would ever keep in a 12 liter is about three guppy fry meaning it is NOT a goldfish set up.

 

[barakuda]

Hi both and thank you for your replies,

I realise that I need a bigger tank (although being a student and buying a £100 thing are not exactly compatible!) Believe me that the pet shop people reassured us that this tank would be sufficient for two fish. I started having doubts when I read about the size that the black moor can reach.

Do you think that buying a second-hand one would be fine? I'm getting a bit stressed now...

 

[Truck]

second hand is fine, you will need a 30 gallon, and an external filter. look on ebay.

your pet shop lied, like most of them do

 

[stang1]

Hi and welcome to the forum.
Buying a second hand tank should be fine and many people do it. You just need to make sure there are no cracks or leaks and know exactly what you are getting for your money.
This site may be of some use:

Aquarist Classifieds

Truck - not all pet stores lie, it's just a case of finding a decent one.

 

[barakuda]

Hi stang,

thanx for the suggestion, the site seems to have a wealth of options; I also had a look at Gumtree where I can find local ads. I agree that there are decent pet shop owners that will try their best to help customers. However, I am new to the fish world and the city where I live and I don't know where the best place would be. Seems I will need to do some research...

In the meantime, until the new tank arrives, do yous think that the situation with my pets chasing each other is normal? Should I do something about it?

 

[stang1]

Is it possible for you to rehome them for the time being?
As the tank is so small, it would be difficult to stop this behaviour and your fish may become stressed. You may also struggle to keep the water quality stable as they do produce a lot of waste.
If you are unsure about advice, then just post your questions on here. Not everyone is as blunt as Truck and we are all here to help.
We all started out n the hobby once and all had plenty of questions to ask, so don't feel silly if you are unsure about something.

 

[silverrabbit]

I had a terrible situation with my black moor, Boris (RIP my little buddy, miss you loads), when he was bullied and chased so much that he died, despite doing all I could.

The moor obviously lacks great vision, and being in such a small environment, i'm worried Fluffy won't make it. Can you take back the fantail until you have a bigger tank? It really is for the best - it took one other goldfish 3 hours to destroy my little guy - don't risk it!!

Also - gravel vac EXTREMELY important - I have 2 tanks that are similar in capacity with each other - one goldie and the other tropical... trust me when I say the waste difference is terrifying. All the poo sitting in the gravel is not healthy for your little guys. You need to do water changes more often too - every 10 days is not going to be enough in such a small space, especially with no gravel vac.

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, good advice from stang. It will be pretty urgent to rehome them and in the meantime, to keep them alive will require probably twice daily 50-60% water changes (with conditioner.) Tropicals are a much more viable option for your tank and easier, because of less waste production.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[barakuda]

Hi everyone

thank you so much for your replies, I'm really happy to see people genuinely interested in offering advice, sharing their experience and willing to help

Stang, thank you for your kind words; I'm afraid I'll be pestering the forum with questions until I get things right!

Silverrabbit, I'm so sorry about Boris; I hope Fluffy won't have the same fate

Waterdrop, thanks for the tip. I changed half the water already once today - always with conditioner. However, I read that too frequent water changes might stress the fish... Maybe do one 50% change daily?

I went to the pet shop today and asked to return the Fantail but they said it's not possible... I also had a look at bigger tanks and it was disappointing:
the 30- and 40-gallon ones some of you suggested are far far far too big and expensive for our space and pockets

Would something smaller do, say a 40-litre tank provided that we stick to the 2 pets we currently have? I can't rehome one of them, as I don't have a spare tank and I think it's better to invest the money towards to new bigger one than buy another small tank. I ordered a gravel vac which will be here on Monday! So excited!

BTW, how about food? Do you think that the 3-4 pellets (which we normally break down in small pieces) are too much? That Fluffy eats like a wee pig, i'm sure he wouldn't stop even if fed all day!

Last thing (for now), could you suggest a place to buy tanks at low prices? I live in Glasgow, so any advice around this part of the world would be much appreciated

 

[Truck]

Truck - not all pet stores lie, it's just a case of finding a decent one.

thats why i said most, not all.

 

[stang1]

I'm not sure of any places to buy cheap tanks so it's worth checking classifieds and having a look on e-bay.
Frequent water changes won't do any harm as long as you can match the water temperature to what's in your tank.
If you could aim for a 80-90 litre tank, then that should be fine for two fancy goldfish. If you have the room for bigger, then it would be a lot better but if you plan on just keeping just two fish 90ltr will be fine.
As for feeding, feed them as much as they can eat in two minutes and only feed them once a day. It is also worth feeding them cooked peas once or twice a week to prevent them from becoming bloated. Cook peas from frozen as normal, remove the shells, mush them up and drop them into the tank.
Good luck with your search!

 

[waterdrop]

Waterdrop, thanks for the tip. I changed half the water already once today - always with conditioner. However, I read that too frequent water changes might stress the fish... Maybe do one 50% change daily?

My apologies in overlooking that you have had the goldfish tank in operation for a month, thus having probably already had some level of "fish-in" cycling take place in the filter. The urgency I indicated may have been an exaggeration. There is still some concern however, unless I'm mistaken again, lol, in our just not knowing the stats on this tank and there having been various changes in the fish load (number of fish being handled by the filter.)

The concern comes from the possibility of ammonia and/or nitrite(NO2) being in the tank if the biofilter is not handling it all. When fish are added, it takes a while for the filter bacterial colonies to "catch up" and normally we watch for this by performing regular ammonia and NO2 tests (which you may be doing and I missed it in the thead?)

If there are ammonia and/or NO2 levels above 0.25ppm (as tested by a good liquid-based test) then that problem "trumps" all other concerns that would direct the hobbyist to watch out for a too-large water change. Thus my concern. Worrying even about the important things of temperature and hardness/pH shock even, are left as less important when the fish are being exposed to the primary poisons of too much ammonia or nitrite(NO2.)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[barakuda]

Hi everyone!

Sorry it took me a while to reply; thank you all so much for your help

I finally got my wee fishes a new big tank and I've been testing the levels of ammonia and NO2 - all seems fine. The only problem that still remains is Susie, the Gold Fantail - chasing poor Fluffy - the black moor - all the time. I actually noticed that Fluffy's fins are ragged and definitely not as "fluffy" as they used to be. I took Susie out and put her in the old tank (which I kept as a 'hospital tank' as may of you advise, thank you once more) and kept reminding her how easy it would be to change her name to Sushi with Wasabi if she doesn't start behaving...

I guess that didn't work. The minute I put her back in, Fluffy went all joyous to greet her and she started nipping him again. I asked at the pet shop about his ragged fins and they told me "it happens". Please please please could you give me some help again? Is that OK, what should I do? Is the Sushi idea maybe better? ;P

I've been trying to find somebody to adopt Susie; I like her, but I have a strong preference towards the black moor (as if it's not obvious already!)

Any advise is - as always - much much appreciated. Thank you in advance.