New Tank

TopChip7

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Hi.

Totally new to fish-keeping I have read various websites for basic information to try and help me get started.

I have a new 35Ltr tank, Powerbio 200Ltr internal pump/filter, 100w heaterstat, 11w lamp.

So far I have put in the gravel, ornaments, live plants and filled it with tap water, turned on the heater to 24c and had the pump running.
I added "Safe-Start" and "water conditioner" 24 hours ago as per instructions on the containers.

Up till last night the water was crystal clear, now its quite cloudy..... I am assuming it is a bacterial bloom (feel free to correct me at any time!)

Q/ Should I leave the pump running 24/7 ?
Q/ Approximately how long will it take for the water to clear ?
Q/ How long till I can add fish ? (The lfs said when I am ready to add fish they will test the water for me)
Q/ Do I need to do any water change prior to adding fish ?
Q/ Should anything else be done that I am not aware of ?

Many thanks
 
Hi.

Totally new to fish-keeping I have read various websites for basic information to try and help me get started.

I have a new 35Ltr tank, Powerbio 200Ltr internal pump/filter, 100w heaterstat, 11w lamp.

So far I have put in the gravel, ornaments, live plants and filled it with tap water, turned on the heater to 24c and had the pump running.
I added "Safe-Start" and "water conditioner" 24 hours ago as per instructions on the containers.

Up till last night the water was crystal clear, now its quite cloudy..... I am assuming it is a bacterial bloom (feel free to correct me at any time!)

Q/ Should I leave the pump running 24/7 ?
Q/ Approximately how long will it take for the water to clear ?
Q/ How long till I can add fish ? (The lfs said when I am ready to add fish they will test the water for me)
Q/ Do I need to do any water change prior to adding fish ?
Q/ Should anything else be done that I am not aware of ?

Many thanks
Welcome to the forum!

Yes, you should leave the pump running 24/7.

With regards to the water, I had it in a new tank I have recently set up, I did a 70-80% water change and now it is fine.

It can vary with how long you can add fish, if you are going to do a fish-in cycle, then in theory, today, but it will involve A LOT of work in the way of water changes every day. If you are going to do a fishless cycle, it could be up to about a month before you can add fish. For more information on fishless cycling Click here and you will find an abundance of information.

Whether you need to do a water change before adding the fish depends on what method you use, if you are doing a fish-in cycle then, I would say 'no', but if you are doing a fishless cycle then I would say 'yes' because you would need to remove the excess NitrAtes.

Other than that, I cant think there is anything you absolutely have to do.

HTH, D.
 
Try and get some plant fertilizers for the live plants as this will help them, and you will get better growth.
 
Try and get some plant fertilizers for the live plants as this will help them, and you will get better growth.
I would say only to add that if he wants it heavily planted, I have a decently planted 70L going atm and I dont add any ferilisers, for me its just an extra cost.

D.
 
Hi.

Totally new to fish-keeping I have read various websites for basic information to try and help me get started.

I have a new 35Ltr tank, Powerbio 200Ltr internal pump/filter, 100w heaterstat, 11w lamp.

So far I have put in the gravel, ornaments, live plants and filled it with tap water, turned on the heater to 24c and had the pump running.
I added "Safe-Start" and "water conditioner" 24 hours ago as per instructions on the containers.

Up till last night the water was crystal clear, now its quite cloudy..... I am assuming it is a bacterial bloom (feel free to correct me at any time!)

Q/ Should I leave the pump running 24/7 ?
Q/ Approximately how long will it take for the water to clear ?
Q/ How long till I can add fish ? (The lfs said when I am ready to add fish they will test the water for me)
Q/ Do I need to do any water change prior to adding fish ?
Q/ Should anything else be done that I am not aware of ?

Many thanks

Hi TC and welcome.

I'll echo what Declan says. Leave the pump running 24/7. The filter is the main home of A-Bacs and N-Bacs which will convert ammonia and nitrite into relatively harmless nitrate. They need the oxygen in running water to stay alive. The general thought is that if the pump is off more than three hours they start to die off.

If you do have a bloom it will take several days to clear. A big water change will help short term but it will most likely come back. Have you been adding ammonia? My understanding is a bloom needs decay or ammonia to form. Instead of a bloom you may have dust from the gravel. The dust will settle and clear with filtration.

While LFS will say you can add fish after a few days, be aware that the fish will suffer and some will most likely die. Please read the pinned threads on cycling at the top of this forum. I started my son's tank doing a fish in cycle as I didn't know about the nitrogen cycle. I don't recommend it. There will be a lot of water changes to minimize the damage. I would get a good testing kit such as an API Master Freshwater Test Kit. Nutrafin is regarded as making a good one also. Stay away from the paper test strips. They are difficult to read and generally regarded as highly inaccurate.

With fishless cycling there will be at least one major water change before adding fish. This is because the nitrate (not nitrite) level will build up significantly and the effective way to reduce that is water changes.

Keep reading the forum. There is a lot of great information here. It can be overwhelming so take it at the speed you are comfortable at.

Good luck.

Greg
 
Thanks for the welcome guys and all the replies.

I would generally do a fishless cycle however, patience is NOT one of my childrens' virtues - They were kind of hoping to have atleast a couple of fish in there this weekend.

When I put the 'safe-start' in, I also deposited a couple of flakes of goldfish food so that would break down and feed the friendly bac's. Should I pop a bit more in or not?

The water is still as cloudy as it was 12 hours ago - no improvement as yet so should I do a partial water change (20%) now or do I leave it a few days and wait and see if it will clear itself?

I don't really want to rely on guess work and salesmen pitches so I will purchase a full testing kit tomorrow morning and post my results - The full kit was £20 (is that about the right price for what I need?).

With regards to fertilizer, I don't know the names of the plants I have put in but my fav one is really bushy with kind of like soft pine needles in tennis ball size balls - Because its only a 35Ltr tank and I would like my plants to be healthy and fed, is it OK to trim/prune them when required?

Many thanks again guys. Most appreciated.
 
Thanks for the welcome guys and all the replies.

I would generally do a fishless cycle however, patience is NOT one of my childrens' virtues - They were kind of hoping to have atleast a couple of fish in there this weekend.

When I put the 'safe-start' in, I also deposited a couple of flakes of goldfish food so that would break down and feed the friendly bac's. Should I pop a bit more in or not?

The water is still as cloudy as it was 12 hours ago - no improvement as yet so should I do a partial water change (20%) now or do I leave it a few days and wait and see if it will clear itself?

I don't really want to rely on guess work and salesmen pitches so I will purchase a full testing kit tomorrow morning and post my results - The full kit was £20 (is that about the right price for what I need?).

With regards to fertilizer, I don't know the names of the plants I have put in but my fav one is really bushy with kind of like soft pine needles in tennis ball size balls - Because its only a 35Ltr tank and I would like my plants to be healthy and fed, is it OK to trim/prune them when required?

Many thanks again guys. Most appreciated.
The tennis ball things are called Java Moss, personally I love them! So I can totally see were your coming from..

And I would do a large, 50-75% change and it should get rid of it almost immediately, if not, do another.

D.
 
I would generally do a fishless cycle however, patience is NOT one of my childrens' virtues - They were kind of hoping to have atleast a couple of fish in there this weekend.

When I put the 'safe-start' in, I also deposited a couple of flakes of goldfish food so that would break down and feed the friendly bac's. Should I pop a bit more in or not?

The water is still as cloudy as it was 12 hours ago - no improvement as yet so should I do a partial water change (20%) now or do I leave it a few days and wait and see if it will clear itself?

I don't really want to rely on guess work and salesmen pitches so I will purchase a full testing kit tomorrow morning and post my results - The full kit was £20 (is that about the right price for what I need?).

With regards to fertilizer, I don't know the names of the plants I have put in but my fav one is really bushy with kind of like soft pine needles in tennis ball size balls - Because its only a 35Ltr tank and I would like my plants to be healthy and fed, is it OK to trim/prune them when required?

Hi TC,

Good luck with the fish-in cycle. I would keep the number of fish small especially for the first month. Follow the test directions carefully. I recommend you test your tap water also. I believe it to be a rarity but my tap water has 1 ppm ammonia, which contributed to my initial problems. Basically if you get ammonia or nitrite over .25, you've got a problem that will require an immediate water change. The higher the reading the larger the change will have to be. Ideally you want the ammonia and nitrite to be zero.

Once we understood the importance of water quality, my son became very patient in waiting for fish. He helps with the testing and we used the time to read some basic aquarium books and pick which fish he would like. Some fish can grow quite large and varieties of fish may not be compatible. Maybe you could use the time to check out different fish stores, although that could be too hard for the kids.

I've never tried adding flakes to help the cycle. Sorry I am not much help here.

I would hold off on the fertilizer at first. Ammonia is a fertilizer so the plants will help some but not enough. If you see decay on the plants, I would get the decay off. My understanding is that any type of decaying waste will add to the ammonia problem.

Greg
 
Thanks for the replies guys, all advice appreciated.

The water was clear this morning.

I bought a test kit - hard to read though but here are my results as I tried to guess the colour chart :crazy:

pHIII 7.5 - 8.0

NO2 0.8 - 1.6

NO3 50 - 110

NH3/4 0 - 0.6

We had a long power cut this morning so no access to the internet at the time so followed instructions on test kit manuals and did the following:

* 25% water change with tap water conditioner
* added a dose of safe start

I also bought some aquatic plant food which I wont use yet as per Gregs advice (Thanks).

All advice appreciated so keep it coming guys!

Thanks
 
Hi there TC7 and welcome to TFF! :hi:

kcharley and some of the other members have given some excellent advice up there, but unfortunately its sounding potentially like "too little, too late!"

The ease with which one can begin strolling down the wrong path and amazing! Many of us have kids who were very, very impatient to have fish. They are behaving like normal, healthy kids! For you, the important image to give you strength is to picture that the disappointment of watching their first new fishy pets die a slow death is much worse than the difficulties of getting through a month or two of explaining a "fishless tank!" The direction you are heading in your thinking so far is towards those deaths or at least some permanent damage to the fish that will shorten their lives.

"Fishless Cycling" is a powerful and important thing and a dramatic differerence for the fish. By stumbling on this web forum you have separated yourself from the vast majority of people who will never have a clue. Choosing to do fishless cycling would put you in an even smaller group who manage to learn the correct core aspects of the hobby in time to have their first fish be successful.

By getting a liquid-reagent based test kit you have made a second "best step" after finding this site, so there is hope! Your water parameters initially look really good for a fishless cycle too, which is good. Unfortunately, the LFS (Local Fish Shop) has thrown you a curve, providing you with a supply of "safe start," which, unlike a lot of the other good new equipment you have, is nothing more than a wish on the part of retailers that the startup of fish tanks wouldn't take so long that it ruins their chances of big sales and lots of people! Virtually all the the commercial attempts to speed up cycling are "snake oil."

The technical problem is that filters, which are the heart of the equipment end of the hobby, are really just pieces of hardware when you get them. They need to be "cycled" by a person with knowledge of the hobby. Its truly weird for newcomers. You need to grow two specific species of bacteria that will cling to the "biomedia" inside the filter. "Growing" this biofilter takes a minimum of about 3 weeks and a maximum of a couple of months and is unpredictable but essential.

Fish give off CO2 when they respire, just like mammals, but surpisingly, they also give off ammonia. The ammonia from this respiration, from fish waste, from excess food and from live plant debris are a deadly poison to the fish, burning their gills and causing death or permanent gill damage even in small amounts. The first species of bacteria (the ammonia oxidizing bacteria or A-Bacs for short) will eat this ammonia and produce nitrite(NO2) in the water.

The nitrite(NO2) which the A-Bacs produce is also a deadly poison because it latches on to the hemoglobin molecules of the fish blood and displaces oxygen, thus suffocating the fish and causing death or permanent nerve damage. The second species of bacteria we grow in the filter (the nitrite(NO2) oxidizing bacteria or N-Bacs for short) will eat the nitrite(NO2) and convert it to nitrate(NO3), which is much less harmful to fish, not great, but basically not something to worry about much and which can be removed via regular weekly water changes that occur when you clean the gravel with a siphon.

Once this "BioFilter" is successfully grown, the aquarist then has this amazing machine which operates with tremendous speed to remove these two deadly poisons constantly from the water and to render water that is clean, clear and wonderful for fish! The environmental cycle behind this process, the "Nitrogen Cycle" is fascinating and a wonderful topic for kids to learn about, no matter what age, so it can become a help on that end of things.

Since the 1980's there has been a "Fishless Cycling" process where pure household ammonia is introduced under a controlled procedure into the newly set up aquarium and water testing is used to follow the progress of the growth of the fledgling colonies of the two beneficial types of bacteria. As you can imagine, this process is just too "slow" for the retailers to successfully "sell" to beginners, so it drives them nuts! But for fishkeepers it represents a revolution. It consistently provides a near perfect environment for fish!

~~waterdrop~~ :)
 
Thanks for the replies guys, all advice appreciated.

The water was clear this morning.

I bought a test kit - hard to read though but here are my results as I tried to guess the colour chart :crazy:

pHIII 7.5 - 8.0

NO2 0.8 - 1.6

NO3 50 - 110

NH3/4 0 - 0.6

We had a long power cut this morning so no access to the internet at the time so followed instructions on test kit manuals and did the following:

* 25% water change with tap water conditioner
* added a dose of safe start

I also bought some aquatic plant food which I wont use yet as per Gregs advice (Thanks).

All advice appreciated so keep it coming guys!

Thanks

Hi TC,

The color readings do leave a bit to interpretation. :blink: I just try to read them in the same light each time to be consistent. Which test kit did you get? Any fish yet?

Ph is fine. You just want it stable as big swings (more than .2) are hard on the fish and can cause chemical changes in the water.

I'm weak on equating NO2, NO3 and NH3/4 to common names. If the NO2 is nitrite and NH3/4 is ammonia, then a water change is needed immediately IF you have fish. The 25% water change is good but I would expect it to reduce your levels by 25% to nitrite to .6 - 1.2 and ammonia to 0 - .4.5. If you have fish, that is not enough. With those levels, I would say a 75% water change if you have fish.

Hopefully one of the smarter members here will confirm or correct me if I am wrong on equating the chemical symbols to names.

You are off to a good start checking the water. Hopefully your kids found it interesting and I am sure they appreciate you are trying to help the fish.

Greg
 
Waterdrop - You are absolutely right of course.... I'll give the kids the test kit and tell them its part of their science lessons. For me to introduce any fish is simply cruelty and I should be shot for it so they'll (and me) will just have to be patient.

Greg - The water kit I got is a Nutrafin Essential Mini Master for fresh water.

As I have NO fish, should I continue from where I am at, monitoring daily and doing regular water changes etc?
Do I need to add anything to the water now ie ammonia?

What I dont quite get is, where does the friendly bac's come from if not introduced from safe-start etc. Are they already in the water in minute quantities?

As always, most appreciated!!!
 
<...>
What I dont quite get is, where does the friendly bac's come from if not introduced from safe-start etc. Are they already in the water in minute quantities?
<...>
Yes, I was so fascinated by "Where do they come from?" that I resolved to do a raw fishless cycle on a completely bare tank with not plants or mature media introduction just to see it for myself and yes, they were there and they multiplied. If I remember some old discussions of this correctly, it is felt that they come entirely or almost entirely from minute numbers of them that are still in the tap water despite the chlorine/chloramine treatments added by water authorities meant to get the water out our end of the pipe with minimal chance of human sickness. The standards surrounding that have to do with human safety, not any sort of unachievable sterility. I think there's been some discussion of air/hand/object introductions of the bacterial cells, which is certainly possible, but I believe the feeling was that water-borne transmission was the most likely. Non-bacteriologists usually have a hard time grasping the idea of the billions of these cells which live on us and surround every part of our lives (just the other day I was reading an interesting article about how our perception of taste in our mouths is dependent on bacteria and would be completely different without them, wierd, huh?)

So there will be some tiny bit there in the tap water and perhaps even more on the water droplets that come in with live plants, if you get some of those. Once these cells settle in on a surface they like (all over everything in the tank, including inside the running filter) and go through their "lag phase," they will begin their "growth phase" and each A-Bac cell will split into two in a few hours, while all along, each cell will be building a "biofilm" structure around itself via its secretions. There will be a few N-Bacs too but they take about 24 hours for each cell division. It will take billions and billions of cells (at a guess) before even your good nutrafin test will be able to detect any environmental changes the A-Bacs can make to the water. Eventually, as the colonies build their biofilm structures, the ones inside the filter will build up faster and better because they will have superior access to oxygen via the flowing water and to food, which is going to be the pure ammonia you are going to introduce manually into the tank.

So that brings us to the next practical steps: We need to determine that you've got the right media types in your filter. Often the LFS or the manufacturer of the filter will sell you some carbon (aka activated charcoal, but at any rate, the black stuff!) This is an attempt to get you hooked buying charcoal on a steady basis which is a good profit as it doesn't cost them much to begin with. Carbon is a fine thing to have on your shelf, as its a good chemical media, but its only good for 3 days when you use it and its only used for removing medications, removing tannins (yellow water from bogwood) and removing weird organic odors that might happen from accidents. So if you have any, its better to figure out how to replace it now with more "biomedia", which is ceramic rings, ceramic pebbles, "biostars" or sponges. Believe it or not, experienced aquarists like to hack away at coarse and fine sponges and other materials and customize their filter media quite a lot! Each persons case is different. While the carbon can serve as a biomedia, its not a good one in my opinion because it eventually breaks down into black dust and gets cleaned away over time. In contrast, ceramics last forever practically and sponges almost as long! You will reuse these things on and on, much to the disappointment of the LFS accountant!

And yet another practical step is the finding of the right kind of "pure household ammonia." This can be a huge hassle for some people. Ideally you go out to a grocery or household supply store or big box store and just look in the section for mops and brooms and floor cleaning stuff. The big problem is that most generic bottles of ammonia are sold with soaps or dyes or fragrances added. You need to find a bottle that's not like that. You are looking for pure simple clear stuff that doesn't foam when shaken. In fact you should be able to shake it and see just some bubbles as if it were water. Usually the typical bottle size is more than enough for your fishless cycle, as you will only be adding small squirts each day.

Next you need some tools for the liquids. Ideally, you'll find syringes with measurement numbers (typically ml) and two would be ideal, one for your test water (to make it easier to get the right amount into your test tubes in the minimaster kit) and the other for introducing the right amount of ammonia into the tank, once each 24 hours.

The article that's pinned up top in the forum that's our working article for the fishless cycle was written by member rdd1952 and was the result of modifying things from a lot of other fishless cycling articles. Its a really good one for telling you what you need but not being too overly detailed for you as a beginner. Its important to be ready to post up reports and questions here on your thread, as the process is different for everyone and not always as smooth as one might believe from the idea one gets from reading. For instance, the pH needs to be tested and kept up with or you can have your process stall because the bacteria don't like their water.

OK, hope that helps you with the next steps,
~~waterdrop~~
 
WOW - You really should write and publish your own book if you haven't already done so!!!

I've read the manual to check what type of filter media there is and it is foam.
I am going to pop up to the LFS and ask them if they sell a pure ammonia kit - whilst I'm there I will ask them if they could supply me with some of their used media to speed the process up a bit (if they will, I won't install it until you let me know if this is a good idea or not). Otherwise, I'll take a look at the media they sell and see if it's compatible with my filter.

Many thanks waterdrop.
 

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