New Tank Setup Help - Transfer Bacteria Idea's

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clivealive

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sons got a new 180L i have a 210 L tank  ,
when he sets up how much  of my media would help his cycling ?
also if he puts gravel in a bag and puts in mine , how much gravel would be useful.
I have a fluval 405 hes getting a fluval 306.
 
anything else we can do.
 
would his new media fit into your filter? if it would it would certainly seed it if you run it in there for a couple of weeks. I would have thought then, if he stocks lightly and feeds lightly for a week or two and keeps an eye on his water stats he should be okay.
 
It's not an exact science but I have seeded a fitler myself this way and it worked out okay. 
 
thanks  maybe add some media to filter and add to his
 
if your able to rob some from yours and add the new to yours and then swap things back around then try it. I think the key is to get it seeded from your filter (whether that be by adding the new media to your established filter for a couple of weeks or by robbing a small amount from yours) You could also pour the lovely brown gunk from the bottom of the canister over the new media too ... provided there's some ammonia to feed it the new tank should be up and running far quicker than starting out from nothing.
 
When I moved my angelfish pair into a seperate thank I poured the filthy water from one of my external canisters from my main than into a bucket and threw in the sponges, added an air stone and just kept squeezing the sponges for a couple of days. Once the angels were ready to go in the tank I added the sponges from the bucket, grabbed a good handful of ceramics from the external filter too, added those and put the angels in. It was an instant cycled filter. I kept an eye on my ammonia and nitrite for a good 10 days and was ready to do a water change if need be but it was fine.
 
If you can aim to do something similar it should be alright. Just make sure your son know's to keep an eye on the water stats :)
 
Hope that makes sense 
 
thanks ,
plan is to nick around 15- 20 % of my substat pro and place in his tank.
 
have i got this right put some filthy water(from filter)  in bucket and add a bit to his tank daily ? (in the water not filter ) ?
 
are u saying i use is sponges from his filter in with the dirty water or just any sponge ?
 
 also pour the lovely brown gunk from the bottom of the canister over the new media too
 
do this for 2-3 days and add a few fish ??? assuming stats are ok.
 
adding the gunk daily will this stop the need to add ammonia ?
 
am i on the right lines
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I'll try to explain it even though I think you seem to be on the right track...
 
That filthy smelly brown slimy gunk that sits at the bottom of the your filter canister is teeming with bacteria. If you can smear a new sponge with that brown 'gunk' you effectively add bacteria to the sponge. When I did it with mine I emptied my external canister of the filthy water into a bucket, grabbed my clean, dry sponges and wiped them around the inside of the canister and then dropped them into the bucket containing the dirty water (are you following so far?) I then added an air stone as bacteria need some oxygen too and left the bucket containing the filthy water and gunk and sponges alone for about 3 days. Each day I put my hand in and gave the sponges a gentle squeeze. The theory was to try and get the bacteria in the bucket to latch onto the sponges.
 
By this time the tank was set up and full of clean dechlorinated water and so it was time to get the filter running.
 
I got my sponges out of the bucket and got them into the filter. I carefully drained the water leaving the thick gunk at the bottom and then carefully poured as much of the gunk into the filter housing and over the sponges as I could. Now doing this will depend on the type of filter you have. My tank was a Juwel Rekord 800 and they have an internal filter housing glued into the rear corner and the sponges slid in via a long tube-like system. This made it easy to partially fill the filter with my filthy, gunky stuff. Some of it spilled onto the substrate and made a mess but that is easily cleared up later. 
 
I then ran the tank for about 2 days (empty of fish) and just kept throwing in fish food and constantly checked the water for signs of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. When no ammonia or nitrite appeared but I got a very low reading for nitrate I took this to mean I was looking at an instantly cycled tank and added my angelfish pair. I kept an eye on the stat for a further 2 weeks but each time everything came back clear.
 
 
Now, how ever you go about the above process I will say approach it sensibly and with a bit of caution. What you are effectively doing is seeding a filter but this isn't always fool proof. I've heard of it done a few times, most of the times it's been a success but I'd still be cautious of it not working out.
 
If you plan to add some of your own cycled media to this new filter then bear in mind it's not going to be fully cycled over night for a lot of fish. But if you add 3 or 4 very young, small fish, which will have a small bio load and also feed lightly for a week then I'm sure you'll get away with it. If all seems well after 10-14 days and there's no sign of ammonia or nitrite then add another 3 or 4 small, young fish. Within a week or so the bacteria will be building and you shouldn't see any problems from doing it this way.
 
Hopefully I've answered your queries and made things a bit clearer on seeding a filter and keep me up to date on how you are going. I'll click on 'follow this topic' so hopefully I'll get a notification if you've got any further questions :)
 
Good luck :) 
 
I've seeded new tanks in the same way.

As long as you test often, and are prepared to do any extra water changes that might be needed, you shouldn't have any problems.
 
I know there may still be some debate about the bacteria contained in substrate, but along with a similar method mentioned above, I have placed substrate from a cycled tank into mesh bags and suspended these near the intake of the filter.
 
BiggTexx said:
I know there may still be some debate about the bacteria contained in substrate, but along with a similar method mentioned above, I have placed substrate from a cycled tank into mesh bags and suspended these near the intake of the filter.
 
you'll get no debate from me ... in my mind common sense says that the substrate has to hold bacteria ... the fish are dropping poop on it all day, every day and that poop degrades down into the substrate. It's well documented that in a lightly planted tank fish poop alone can feed the plants.
 
I've never heard of suspending bags of substrate near the filter but it makes sense that that would help :)
 
I'm glad that at least one person agrees on the substrate angle.  I have seen quite a few posts (not necessarily in this forum) debating the usefulness of 'used' substrate.
 
As far as suspending near the filter, it was actually an idea a friend of mine had when he was cycling 3-4 aquariums at once. It actually became a experiment 'for future reference'. Each tank was 20 gal (being setup as breeder and/or quarantine tanks), one setup had nothing but used filter media, one had filter media and substrate suspended, the last two were done using pure ammonia.  The tank with suspended substrate cycled the fastest (obviously faster than the pure ammonia method)  and surprisingly faster than the filter media alone, by almost a full week.
 
it makes sense to me.... but then my brains functions on 'common sense' (funny how common sense isn't that common anymore!) and not on scientific. 
 
As for substrate and bacteria ... have you ever had a tank with stone/gravel/pebble substrate and dug the syphon right into it down to the glass base and seen what it sucks up? That filthy brown, stinky gunk? That's pure bacteria ... stands to reason in my mind that if you get a good handful of that it's teeming with bacteria.  
 
The people who deny bacteria in the substrate have probably not studied nor researched microbiology. The people who do this sort of research know better. If you look at the research into tank bacteria you will see they inevitably collect samples form filter media, substrate and even the water. While there are not many free floating nitrifiers in the water, there are a minute number. Plus it also provides support that most are in one's substrate and filter and insures all the potential types have been identified.
 
Research on planted vs non-planted shows that, in the latter, there are no aerobic bacteria once you get about 1/2 inch deep. In planted tanks there are multiple layers of bacteria even at greater depths. This is because the plants actively transport oxygen down to and out of their roots to help support them, Those bacteria in turn make things the plants use. If you want some research on this, read here http://m.m.aslo.info/lo/toc/vol_42/issue_3/0529.pdf
 
Finally, a tank will cycle whether or not one has a good functioning filter or not as long as all the other things they need are present. They will simply multiply elsewhere in the tank. Think about the sloppy fish keeper who almost never cleans their media to the point of it clogging and causing flow in the filter to slow. This causes the bacteria to suffer and even to die back. But the tank remains cycled because the bacteria elsewhere will use the ammonia etc. and they will multiply.
 
Moreover, the bacteria will always do best where the best supply of what they need is delivered.
 
A lot of the stinky stuff mentioned above may not be the aerobic nitrifiers, they are other anaerobix/anoxic bacteria. At the glass depth one must have plant roots or there is no oxygen. Even the facultative aerobes which can switch what they use from free oxygen to the the bound oxygen in nitrate will switch to using sulfates and then create hydrogen sulfide, the nasty rotten egg smelling gas. There is a difference between the brown muck in filter media and what is at the bottom of the substrate in an unplanted tank. But even the brown muck in ones filter can have the areobic bacateria die back when the flow rate is slowed. The bacteria need everything delivered to them via the curculation of water theought the biofilm in which they live. this means a filter needs flow though. When the much builds up to the point where it slows flow, it is also allowing the bacteria in the media to die.
 
When it comes to seeding nitrifying bacteria the following methods will all work to differing degrees:
 
-Adding viable bottled bacteria. One should turn off tank lights for 24 hours right before adding the bacteria.
-Adding cycled bio-media, substrate or decor from one or more of one's other tanks.
-Squeezing out sponges and/or relatively new floss into the water of the new tank with the filters running. One should turn off tank lights for 24 hours right before squeezing.
Adding live plants. These take up NH4, reducing the need for nitrifying bacteria. Live plants also have bacteria on them and their roots and will also help to seed a tank.
 
Of course you can use the above in combination and/ or sufficient quantity to achieve an instantly cycled tank.
 
Accumulating a complete spectrum of microorganisms and tiny critters takes months. However, the most important ones for the safety of our fish are the nitrifiers and they must colonize right away (i.e during cycling) while the rest will become well established later.
 
One suggestion here on seeding a tank. It is usually difficult to tell how much bacteria we might be adding with any of the methods above (except for bottled bacteria). But there is one easy way to know. Add some ammonia and test in 24 hours. How much of that ammonia is processed and whether any nitrite appears will tell you what level of cycling is in place. You can add the appropriate amount of ammonia for the fish load you expect to add and as long as you can test 0/0 in 24 hours, the tank is good to go. Processing 3 ppm will support a full load right away, 2 ppm will support a moderate load, .50 - 1 ppm a lighter load with gradual stocking to get to a full load.
 
Akasha72 said:
it makes sense to me.... but then my brains functions on 'common sense' (funny how common sense isn't that common anymore!) and not on scientific. 
 
As for substrate and bacteria ... have you ever had a tank with stone/gravel/pebble substrate and dug the syphon right into it down to the glass base and seen what it sucks up? That filthy brown, stinky gunk? That's pure bacteria ... stands to reason in my mind that if you get a good handful of that it's teeming with bacteria.  
 
The best of the bacteria.  I would almost gamble that the sludge is better than that found in the filter.  Now that would be an interesting discussion...
 
I don't know about better than the filter - I wouldn't like to guess on that 
 

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