New Tank, Questions.

[Norvu]

Okay, so I have a couple of questions. I've set up a new tank (UFO 550), which has been running for around a month and now has fish swimming around in there. I have a 150 watt heater, a Fluval 105 cannister filter and a noisy air pump But I figured it's all going well. Filter keeps getting clogged up, but I figured that was because we used about 30% of the water from our old tank. I think our old tank needs some explaining...

Before I got involved and pretty much took the aquarium stuff over, our tank was rotten. It was a small tank (about 40 liters) and looks like some cheapo thing from the 70's. You could barely see through the water and we had a 12 inch common pleco in there with about 20 other regular sized fish that I don't know the names of! So I decided I'd start doing it and we bought the new tank, filter and heater etc. and started over. Half inch of sand at the bottom and stones covering the top.

Basically, I had no idea about all the nitrite, nitrate or beneficial bacteria stuff The guys in the LFS told me to let it run for a week, get the pH level right (with pH down and some tester kit) and then put some fish in. Did that. 10 days later and they're fine... so in go the rest. With the pleco, I couldn't figure out how to get it so I pretty much just grabbed it and threw it in the new take (in hindsight that was probably wrong), but he's okay now after 2 weeks (I think).

We decided we liked the real plants and started doing that (only to learn later that our Pleco doesn't eat them like we thought he would, but just likes to beat them up and unearth them). Of course we have to see if the LFS want him (we got him from some random store that closed down when he was barely half an inch long, so we can't take him back there) now because he just won't settle in there.

Now that we have about 30 fish in there (adopted some more when a friend finished with his tank), do I just follow the instructions from the Avoiding And Treating New Tank Syndrome thread, or do we need to do something more drastic? I'm pretty sure that, even though they're alive now we've screwed them up enough that they wont last that long. I'm buying some testing kits over the weekend to see how much trouble I'm in.

Thanks. Pictures:

^-- The big guy with my hand for scale.

 

[erk628]

Okay, so I have a couple of questions. I've set up a new tank (UFO 550), which has been running for around a month and now has fish swimming around in there. I have a 150 watt heater, a Fluval 105 cannister filter and a noisy air pump But I figured it's all going well. Filter keeps getting clogged up, but I figured that was because we used about 30% of the water from our old tank. I think our old tank needs some explaining...

Before I got involved and pretty much took the aquarium stuff over, our tank was rotten. It was a small tank (about 40 liters) and looks like some cheapo thing from the 70's. You could barely see through the water and we had a 12 inch common pleco in there with about 20 other regular sized fish that I don't know the names of! So I decided I'd start doing it and we bought the new tank, filter and heater etc. and started over. Half inch of sand at the bottom and stones covering the top.

Basically, I had no idea about all the nitrite, nitrate or beneficial bacteria stuff The guys in the LFS told me to let it run for a week, get the pH level right (with pH down and some tester kit) and then put some fish in. Did that. 10 days later and they're fine... so in go the rest. With the pleco, I couldn't figure out how to get it so I pretty much just grabbed it and threw it in the new take (in hindsight that was probably wrong), but he's okay now after 2 weeks (I think).

We decided we liked the real plants and started doing that (only to learn later that our Pleco doesn't eat them like we thought he would, but just likes to beat them up and unearth them). Of course we have to see if the LFS want him (we got him from some random store that closed down when he was barely half an inch long, so we can't take him back there) now because he just won't settle in there.

Now that we have about 30 fish in there (adopted some more when a friend finished with his tank), do I just follow the instructions from the Avoiding And Treating New Tank Syndrome thread, or do we need to do something more drastic? I'm pretty sure that, even though they're alive now we've screwed them up enough that they wont last that long. I'm buying some testing kits over the weekend to see how much trouble I'm in.

Thanks. Pictures:

^-- The big guy with my hand for scale.

Your way way over stocked first thing you need to do is dramatically downsize the amount of fish you have starting with that poor pleco.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Norvu and welcome to TFF!

OK, the story is pretty complicated so I'll probably get it wrong but I'll give a starting shot and my friends can come along a clean it up

It sounds like your new tank is a 78L/20G tank that was not fishless cycled but has had fish in it for some undetermined amount of the month its been in operation. Its not clear if you have a good liquid-reagent test kit or know how to use it yet. Its not clear what your maintenance procedures are yet.

We generally strongly recommend (especially for any beginners first year) that the rough guideline of the one inch of fish body (fins don't count) per US gallon of tank volume or, hopefully, less, be followed. Very small torpedo shaped fish such as neon tetras count for less inches than they really are and big fish (like plecos) could for more.

I believe you already understand and are trying to re-home the big one, but if you have 30 fish in a 20G, its unlikely you are not overstocked and possibly by a large amount. Another factor is that aquariums that are fully or overstocked, even when they are run by an experienced aquarist, will usually be overfiltered also, which would mean a large expensive external cannister filter or very large HOB on that tank.

So, the most urgent things we probably need to think about are some large water changes with good technique (because that's something that can be done even before you can do other things.) Good technique means the replacement water needs to be conditioned to remove chlorine/chloramine and roughly temperature matched (your hand is good enough.) Next we need to find a good liquid-reagent based test kit if you don't already have one (what tester kit did the LFS have you buy?) Many of us like and use the API Freshwater Master Test Kit. You'll need to post up test results for your tank and tap water.

Next, if an analysis of your stocking proves you are overstocked still then you'll need to work on the re-homing problem to get your stock down to size. Then you'll need to think about good maintenance techniques like having a good gravel cleaning siphon and using it to change a significant percentage of water each week.

If your readings show that you are still in a Fish-In cycling situation then you'll need to deal with that and all the members will help you. For now you also need to be doing your homework and reading the "Nitrogen Cycle", "Fishless Cycle" and "Fish-In Cycling" articles in the Beginners Resource Center. We don't want any beginners passing through here without learning these basics of the hobby.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Norvu]

Hi Norvu and welcome to TFF!

OK, the story is pretty complicated so I'll probably get it wrong but I'll give a starting shot and my friends can come along a clean it up

It sounds like your new tank is a 78L/20G tank that was not fishless cycled but has had fish in it for some undetermined amount of the month its been in operation. Its not clear if you have a good liquid-reagent test kit or know how to use it yet. Its not clear what your maintenance procedures are yet.

I do not have a test kit yet, all I have is a pH testing kit (in which I put 7 drops of the liquid into 5ml of my tank water) and I use a colour scale to judge what the level is. Is it worth getting a digital pH tester or is the colour scale accurate enough?

We generally strongly recommend (especially for any beginners first year) that the rough guideline of the one inch of fish body (fins don't count) per US gallon of tank volume or, hopefully, less, be followed. Very small torpedo shaped fish such as neon tetras count for less inches than they really are and big fish (like plecos) could for more.

I believe you already understand and are trying to re-home the big one, but if you have 30 fish in a 20G, its unlikely you are not overstocked and possibly by a large amount. Another factor is that aquariums that are fully or overstocked, even when they are run by an experienced aquarist, will usually be overfiltered also, which would mean a large expensive external cannister filter or very large HOB on that tank.

Yeah, I've been reading up on all the threads and am 99.9% sure I'm over stocked. My brother is moving and when I woke up today he had put his two Kissing gourami in our tank (he's moving house). I told him it was a bad idea after all I've learned on this forum so far, but he said it was too late now. They have both expired now, probably because my water is pretty harsh right now.

I have a Fluval 105 (thinking about upgrading eventually, to get more room for more filter material), is this sufficient for a 20G tank? And overflitered? I didn't think you could over filter a tank.

So, the most urgent things we probably need to think about are some large water changes with good technique (because that's something that can be done even before you can do other things.) Good technique means the replacement water needs to be conditioned to remove chlorine/chloramine and roughly temperature matched (your hand is good enough.) Next we need to find a good liquid-reagent based test kit if you don't already have one (what tester kit did the LFS have you buy?) Many of us like and use the API Freshwater Master Test Kit. You'll need to post up test results for your tank and tap water.

I'll pop into my LFS tomorrow and see if they have a test kit, if not I'll order the one you mentioned online. Is there anything I can buy there that would help my tank further? Maybe ask for some mature filter media or some gravel and stick it in a spare basket in my canister filter?

Also I have some dechlorinator, I put some in a bucket then pour tap water into the bucket and stir a bit (I keep the temperature as similar as possible just by feeling it). Is there anything else to a good water changing technique?

Next, if an analysis of your stocking proves you are overstocked still then you'll need to work on the re-homing problem to get your stock down to size. Then you'll need to think about good maintenance techniques like having a good gravel cleaning siphon and using it to change a significant percentage of water each week.

Should I be cleaning my gravel right now, I thought I'd want the bacteria to build up down there?

If your readings show that you are still in a Fish-In cycling situation then you'll need to deal with that and all the members will help you. For now you also need to be doing your homework and reading the "Nitrogen Cycle", "Fishless Cycle" and "Fish-In Cycling" articles in the Beginners Resource Center. We don't want any beginners passing through here without learning these basics of the hobby.

Thanks, much appreciated.

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, in addition to Alien Anna's article I'd also be referring to rabbut's article titled fish-in cycling. If you make the store run a good thing to look for would be Seachem Prime for its utility as probably the best dechlor solution for beginners in difficult situations for the first year and because its quite concentrated. This would be in addition to finding the good test kit as soon as possible of course.

What you should be getting out of the fish-in cycling articles is that you have to be a bit of a detective with your test results that go along with all the water changing. Most fish-in cyclers test twice a day, morning and evening, picking a time that puts them 12 hours apart so that they're dividing the 24 hour day in half. At first you sometimes need multiple very large water changes to get the ammonia and nitrite reporting zero ppm or very close to it. After that you want to figure out the percentage and frequency of water changes that keep your ammonia and nitrite(NO2) results at or below 0.25ppm by the time you can be home for the next test and potential water change. So what's happening is that when you measure (about 20 or 30 min after a water change should give you good mixing for a more accurate check of what it accomplished) after the water change the levels should look to be at or very close to zero ppm for both. Then at the next test you hope they will have only reached 0.25ppm or less (for one or the other or both) and based on that feedback to yourself, you can alter how big or how frequent you make the water changes. It takes some days of course for the feedback to make better sense usually.

I would dose the conditioner (what we call the dechlor product, like Prime) at 1.5x or so of that the label tells you to dose. If its less than a cap full, you can use the threads in the cap to guesstimate. Its better not to dose above twice as much as what they tell you. The temperature matching can be just by using your hand a few times to get it about right. Its the willingness to keep doing water changes when needed, dispite how much work it is, that is what will help your fish.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Norvu]

So I've done a 20% water change today and given the pleco a new home at the LFS in! Kind of sad to see him go but we wanted to have a more planted tank and when I woke up today he had knocked over the drift wood and the heater! So I think it was the right choice.

Going to start removing the guppies slowly, they seem a lot happier now that the Plec is gone, I figure they must have been terrified of it or something because where they were all hanging at the top of the tank, now they're all in and around the plants and drift wood.

I also cleaned out the filter using a bucket full of water from the tank itself and put in a new carbon filter. Also placed a cap full (10ml) of the dechlor in the base of the canister. Done a pH test and it is around 7 now, which I think is okay?

All I'm trying to do now is get rid of the slight white mist in the tank, which (from what I've read) is bacterial bloom. The bloom has been there for a while now, more than a week. Hopefully it'll fade eventually.

 

[waterdrop]

OK, good, you're off and running and making improvements! Good job! It sounds like you've still only got a pH test and not the other more important ones. If not, then I recommend the water changes be 50% and yes indeed you want to be cleaning that gravel as that 50% is going out through the gravel-cleaning-siphon! The debris in the gravel is where most of the organic food is that's supplying the heterotrophic bacteria with food to cause the bacterial bloom! You can't clean up a bloom, it will just play itself out, but you do need to be doing gravel cleaning with your frequent water changes. Once you can test, you'll be able to adjust the amount of water changing.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Norvu]

Awesome. Good to know I'm slowly getting there. I still haven't got a full testing kit yet, money is kind of short with Christmas looming over our heads. But, when I get paid in a couple of weeks I plan on popping out and getting the API test kit (which I saw in the LFS when dropping off the Plec) and also picking up a gravel vac (not sure if the one the LFS had is a battery powered one or not, but I'm not sure of the difference in performance either).

Do I need to worry about doing anything with the sand or is my main concern just cleaning the gravel on top?

Thanks for all the help

 

[erk628]

Awesome. Good to know I'm slowly getting there. I still haven't got a full testing kit yet, money is kind of short with Christmas looming over our heads. But, when I get paid in a couple of weeks I plan on popping out and getting the API test kit (which I saw in the LFS when dropping off the Plec) and also picking up a gravel vac (not sure if the one the LFS had is a battery powered one or not, but I'm not sure of the difference in performance either).

Do I need to worry about doing anything with the sand or is my main concern just cleaning the gravel on top?

Thanks for all the help

Do you have sand and gravel in you tank right now?

 

[Norvu]

I have about an inch of sand at the bottom and gravel on top, as per the advice from the LFS when I mentioned I'd want to have plants in the aquarium.

 

[erk628]

I have about an inch of sand at the bottom and gravel on top, as per the advice from the LFS when I mentioned I'd want to have plants in the aquarium.

Well I dont know how your going to do that because in order to clean the gravel right you need to take the vac all the way to the bottom which would suck up the sand

 

[waterdrop]

You'll just have to adopt a sand-cleaning technique, which is to stir the sand with something else (like a different part of your hand or perhaps something on a stick held with the other hand and keep the suction end of the siphon enough above the substrate surface that it doesn't suck up too much sand as you're cleaning. If the substrate is quite dirty to start off with then you might want to stir up a mighty mess to begin with and just suck water from higher up. Once you do multiple instances of this larger type, the overall condition of the substrate should be improved and after that your new weekly water change habits will keep things from ever getting bad.

You don't want a battery gravel cleaner or any sort of cleaner that puts the water back into the tank. The major function of the weekly gravel-clean-water-change is to take water (water laden with heavy metals, other inorganics and organics that don't evaporate) OUT of the tank so that things won't build up. The added plus of stirring up organic debris and getting more of it to go out is just a bonus, a necessary bonus though!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Norvu]

Yeah, my substrate isn't that thick so I can clean the gravel easy enough with effecting the sand much (saw a technique using a something attached to the siphon to disturb the sand to clean that also). Is it possible to go from my sand/gravel tank to a tank with only sand? Can't imagine it would be easy, especially if I am trying to cycle, but I think they look better and it might be easier to clean with just one of the two in there.

Also after doing another big water change and feeding the fish a little less, the water seems much clearer

 

[erk628]

Yeah, my substrate isn't that thick so I can clean the gravel easy enough with effecting the sand much (saw a technique using a something attached to the siphon to disturb the sand to clean that also). Is it possible to go from my sand/gravel tank to a tank with only sand? Can't imagine it would be easy, especially if I am trying to cycle, but I think they look better and it might be easier to clean with just one of the two in there.

Also after doing another big water change and feeding the fish a little less, the water seems much clearer

Once your tank has cycled and has matured a bit then you can change your substance to just sand. I would wait until it has cycled and matured though. When you go to do that you will want to remove the fish just put then in another tank if you have one or a bucket with some of the tank water, if possible put the filter on the side of the bucket or tank and let it run not a big deal if you cant though. Then remove everthing else from the tank. Get all the water out then the gravel and sand and just throw that away. You can go to a hardware store like lowes or menards and buy a bag of play sand you can get a 50 pound bag for 3 somthing. You can either get white or brown I've tried both. I used brown first didnt like it so I changed to white a few days later. Take the sand and grab a bucket or a big popcorn bowl and put it under the faucet and let the water run over it stiring the sand up once in awhile. Once the water is clear on top of the sand you can add it to the tank. I made mine about 2 inchs thick. You dont want it to thick because it will build up deadly gases. Once you have the sand in ever other week or so when you do your water changes stir up the sand with your hands to release any of that gas that has started building up. If you see bubbles rise from the sand when you do these thats the gases If possible wash the sand before you take the fish out cause it will take awhile to rinse. If you cant do that no big deal I wasnt able to cause I didnt have any were to put the clean sand. Honestly after the first tank I didnt even rinse it I just put it straight in it just makes it real cloudy but goes away in about a day. Regardess your gonna have some cloudiness at first. Once the sand is in there and you are ready to fill it back up pour the water on a plate dont pour it direclty on the sand cause it will make it cloudy do the same with water changes. Once done you can put your fish in the cloudniess won't hurt then.

 

[natalie265]

I just want to add one more thing. The "Ph Down" stuff that the pet store sold you is crap. In my opinion it is very dangerous to mess w/the ph in this way. For a beginner, i would recommend that you don't mess w/the ph of your tap water at all. Ideally, you would choose fish that are suited to the type of ph that you have coming out of your tap. For example, your guppies should thrive in harder water. If you feel it is necessary to alter your ph and you are up for the challenge, there are better, more natural ways of doing so. Best of luck!