New Tank Problems

[Ohio56Willys]

Hello everyone.  We recently set up a new aquarium for my son and we continue to have issues.  After relying too heavily on the knowledge of our local pet store on the first go-around rather than my own knowledge I did a lot of research before giving the tank a second go.  The tank is a 10-gallon (due to limited space) Aqueon with a 100gph HOB filter system.  In tank heater is the pre-set type and is set for 78* F.  All the gravel, plastic plants and decorations were rinsed thoroughly before putting them in the tank. 
 
Our problems the first time around can be attributed to many different things including poor acclimation, too many fish, too big of fish and overfeeding (my son was excited).  This second time around is more perplexing.  Before purchasing fish the second time I purchased an API Master water testing kit.  I tested the water ph for comparison against the fish store's ph.  It was between 8.2 and 8.4!  The tank was filled with filtered tap water (PUR basic faucet filter).  After visiting a well-respected fish store in our area we decided upon cycling our tank with 3 small Checkerboard Barbs.  He assured us that their city water also had a high ph and that the fish would be able to adapt.  I spent over an hour and a half acclimating the fish to the tank, pouring a 1/2 cup of tank water into their bag every 15 minutes.  The fish seemed to be fine, darting around the tank together followed by periods of hiding amongst the rocks and plants.  I would test the water daily or twice a day.  Ammonia has always been 0ppm along with nitrite and nitrate being 0ppm.  After 72 hours I found one of the Barbs stuck in the bow of the sunken ship decoration (a 4 year old did the picking, what can I say).  After freeing him he could not right himself and was barely breathing.  Since the water always tested fine for everything the only thing I could think of was the ph, which was still 8.2.  I decided to do a 20% water change with some bottled water (no vitamins or minerals, just filtered tap water).  Its ph was registed a 6.0 which was the lowest the test goes.  Deciding I didn't have much to loose I did the swap which brought the ph down to 8.0.  Later that night I lost a second fish.  After 96 hours I found the third fish upside down in the tank.  I did another 20% water change with the bottled water in an attempt to bring the ph down lower.  He righted himself before I headed back to work but I fear the worst.  The water test 0ppm for everything. 
 
I'm kind of at a loss, and even though my son is doing ok with the losses we care for our pets and don't want to continue to have this happen.  Does anyone have any input?  I wish I would have done a fishless cycle with ammonia first, but to be honest nobody has ever mentioned doing anything other than a cycling with fish in the tank and ammonia and nitrite haven't ever spiked in the tank.  Any help at this point is much appreciated!   

 

[Byron]

The problem the second time around (latest, with the barbs) was probably pH shock.  The first fish may have become stuck in the decor accidentally (barbs, like most fish, love to explore everywhere, looking for food) and been internally damaged by that and/or the rescue.  But the next two losses in my view are more likely due to the drastic pH shift.
 
A bit about pH, which stands for pondus hydrogeni, Latin for “potential of hydrogen.” Water is made up of positively-charged hydrogen ions and negatively-charged hydroxyl ions, and pH is the measurement of the ratio of hydrogen and hydroxyl ions in a body of water. Acidic water contains more hydrogen ions, and basic (alkaline) water more hydroxyl ions; neutral water has an equal proportion. The pH is closely linked with the level of carbon dioxide (CO2) because CO2 produces carbonic acid. The hardness also impacts pH, since the carbonates bind to acids as they appear.  The pH is measured with a scale from 1 to 14 with 7 being neutral. Numbers below 7 indicate acidic water, increasingly more acidic as they lower, while numbers above 7 indicate basic or alkaline water, increasingly as the numbers rise. This scale is logarithmic, meaning that each unit is a ten-fold increase/decrease; so a pH of 5 is ten times more acidic than a pH of 6, and 100 times more acidic than a pH of 7, and a thousand times more acidic than a pH of 8. Fish must never be exposed to sudden pH changes approaching one unit, as this is very stressful and may kill some species.  The impact of pH on fish is significant; water constantly enters the fish via osmosis through the cells, and the pH of the water can shift the pH of the fish’s blood if they are different. The fish must therefore regulate its internal pH accordingly, and this takes energy. Fish do this regularly in nature in response to changes in its environment, but these are usually minimal.
 
Cycling also enters the picture.  You tested for ammonia and report it was zero, so I am surmising that this may not have got very far, but it might well have caused the fish to die anyway, or at the very least stressed them which weakens them permanently.  I would advise you to cycle the tank before fish are added.  No fish, and I mean no fish species, can withstand high ammonia and/or nitrite without internal damage, even if they live through it.
 
My first suggestion is to confirm the parameters of your source water (tap water presumably), with the data from the water authority which may be posted on their website, or you can contact them.  You/we need to know the GH (general hardness), KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity), and pH.  Rather that waste money for a GH/KH test, use the data from the water people.  Thee numbers will help explain the pH, and the KH serves to buffer the pH, useful to know.
 
Knowing the parameters will tell you what sort of fish will be suited to your water.  And here I need to mention about the store's water.  Fish in the store come from suppliers, and the store intends to sell them fairly quickly, so temporary issues over water parameters are not as critical for commercially raised fish, but may be more so for wild caught fish.  But this temporary housing is different from permanent housing for the rest of their lives in your or my aquarium.  And this long-term care is much more important, for some species more than others, but still important.
 
Adjusting parameters can be complicated.  I won't get bogged down in this now; it may come up once we have your parameter data, depending what it is and your fish options.  But every aquarium needs a partial water change at least once a week, and if you get into the need for preparing special water, this can get complicated.  And emergency water changes will be more problematical.  So most all of us on this forum will recommend selecting fish suited to your source water as a safer and easier approach.
 
The checkerboard barbs are not suitable for a 10g tank.  Barbs are shoaling fish, and thus must have a group.  Numbers depend upon species, but six is generally the absolute minimum, with a few more much better.  Second issue with barbs is their high level of activity, which means more spacious tanks than would be needed for other similarly-sized but less active fish.  Both the lack of numbers and the tank size cause stress to fish, and in the majority of cases fish react to these issues with increased aggression which may appear weeks down the road if not sooner.  Once we know the parameters we can look at suitable-sized fish.  But it won't be any barb, though the cherry could work.
 
Byron.

 

[Ohio56Willys]

Byron, thank you for your informative response.  I will look into finding the GH and KH numbers.  I should have a water report somewhere at home.

 

[Ohio56Willys]

Well, after my water department was less than helpful I finally was able to pick up a test.  GH measured at 180ppm (could be higher but that is the highest the test went) and KH was also 180ppm.  Where do I go from here?

 

[Byron]

Well, after my water department was less than helpful I finally was able to pick up a test.  GH measured at 180ppm (could be higher but that is the highest the test went) and KH was also 180ppm.  Where do I go from here?

 
If these test kits had upper limits, I will assume they may be strip and not liquid tests?  Doesn't really matter, I am just curious, as the API liquid GH/KH test will go as high as you need, you just keep adding drops until the colour changes.  So now we have the question as to what the GH might actually be, as it certainly can be higher than 180ppm (= 10 dGH) which is moderately hard.
 
This explains the higher pH anyway.  But I would still want to pin down the GH and KH more precisely.  If for example your water is 180ppm for GH and KH, you have a fiar number of fish options from livebearers to some of the hardier tetras, most barbs, a few rainbowfish, many catfish.  Now, the 10g tank is obviously going to limit many of these, but I am just mentioning basic fish groups.  The point is, I would not recommend adjusting the water parameters as they are not bad.
 
On the other hand, if the GH is actually much higher, some of the fore-mentioned fish will have issues.  I can't understand public water authorities not being able to provide data on the water...is there a decent fish store that you could ask to test the GH?  If you do, make sure you get the number, not some general term which can mean different things to different people, and make sure they use a test that is accurate, not limited.  Make them show you what they are doing.
 
To the death of the last barbs, I still feel this was likely the  sudden shift in parameters.  The bottled water you used that had a low pH likely was very low in GH/KH too.  And something I just spotted this time round...the water faucet filter.  Do you know just what this does?
 
Byron.

 

[Ohio56Willys]

Yeah, unfortunately I could only find the strip tests locally for GH and KH.  I will find some way to get a better answer on the GH levels.  As to the filter, it does the basics like removes microbial cysts, heavy metals, industrial chemicals, pesticides and chlorine.  I did notice that the box says it filters the water over natural minerals which I actually didn't know it did.  To my understanding this may or may not be a problem, correct? 

 

[Baccus]

Some water filters can remove too many essential minerals, so while your local water supplier might say that the supplied water has Gh and Kh at a certain amount, after going through your water filter and  you could be effectively changing the levels quite drastically.
 
Something else that springs to mind is that the nitrifying bacteria that you want to develop in your tank  and filter can be slow to establish not only from temperature but also the pH, kH and gH of the water. This could be one of the reasons for your 0 readings so far.

 

[GarrettLiz]

I am bottling the tap water in to 5 litre bottles a day before i put them in to the tank to allow them to come to room temp, then i add the de-chlorinator in before adding the bottles to the tank.
Should i leave the lids off when storing?

 

[Byron]

I am bottling the tap water in to 5 litre bottles a day before i put them in to the tank to allow them to come to room temp, then i add the de-chlorinator in before adding the bottles to the tank.
Should i leave the lids off when storing?

 
This is a new topic, not directly related to the thread, so you might want to ask a moderator to move it to a new thread of its own where more will see it.  But while waiting for that, you should then explain why you are letting tap water sit.  If it is just the temperature aspect, is there a reason you can't mix hot and cold?  If there is some other reason, letting it sit out may not matter much.
 
Byron.