New project: Keyhole with labs

[Just40Fun]

Thinking of starting a new project of crossing Keyholes with labs:

Objective:

-Size: 4-5"
-Shape: taller like keyhole
-Color: Bright like labs
-Water: more flexible from soft to hard.
-Disposition: peacful like keyhole but not as shy.

Thinking of doing 2 seperate mating tank, one with male keyhole and female labs. the other with male lab with female keyholes.

except labs are mouth broods, think nature can find a way?

 

[pica_nuttalli]

hrm, well presupposing that you're actually serious about this...

i don't think it would work because:

• the aforementioned mouthbrooding vs pit-laying issue
• the species are from different genus (i've not heard of cross-genus sucess)
• they're from different subfamilies (again, not promising)
• they have such different water requirements that you'd have trouble inducing courtship and any eggs produced probably wouldn't hatch(one way or the other)
• i think they exhibit different courtship patterns as well

keep in mind that should any eggs actually hach, the parenting differences would be almost insurmountable (esp. if hatched by keyhole females). and any fry that did make it would be almost gauranteed infertile--meaning you'd have to keep having success crossing the species to really count the hybridization a "sucess".

unless you've just got your heart set on it, i'd recommend breeding pure-line dwarf cichlids. it'd probably be just as difficult but with better financial rewards.

 

[Just40Fun]

I doubt it will work also. It would be interesting if it does work and produce the peaceful, taller labs that can be mixed in a community tank.

 

[freddyk]

Good luck, I can rest easy knowing this won't happen. You're trying to get a riverine substrate spawner to mate with a rift lake mouthbrooder. Their behaviors are so different neither will have any clue when the other is ready to spawn, even if they were able to technically do it, which I doubt.

The common hybrids you see have been genetically engineered in labs and created through generations of tweaking - they did not simply throw a couple of fish together - and they used fish with much more in common then the two you've chosen.

They also use many specimens - if you just get two different yet compatable fish to mate, and then start mating their offspring together, you're gonna get some nasty inbred fish that will look like garbage, with short life spans and many defects. Leave this one for the pro's.

Anyway, Your chances are a big zero.

 

[Opcn]

Even if they do decide to spawn they wont be able too, when they do there spawning act they wont be synced up at all. IMHO you only have one hope, Milting, If you take a female full of ripe esggs out of the water and squeez her just right the eggs might exit her body and you can collect them in a little water of the appropriate pH, then you need to squeeze a male just right so that he deposits his sperm, you then mix the sperm and eggs and presto, you have your hybrid specimens, now I'll bet that if you did this with a few different pairs you could get an okay mix genetically to try for another generation, but with species this disymilar I would guess that they will all be sterile, maybe you would have better luck backbreeding into one of the two parent species though.

You do have lots of big tanks waiting to be part of this project right?

 

[Synirr]

The common hybrids you see have been genetically engineered in labs and created through generations of tweaking - they did not simply throw a couple of fish together - and they used fish with much more in common then the two you've chosen.

Ok seriously, I have to ask at this point... where on earth are you coming up with this??? I've seen you say that hybrid fish are genetically engineered in labs at least thrice now, and I'm wondering if you actually have any evidence of this, or if it's just some theory you've come up with in your head. Seriously, with most common hybrids such as blood parrots, the parental species have similar spawning behaviour and I can see absolutely no reason why they couldn't interbreed if a pair bond were to form between them. I honestly want to know why you seem so sure that breeders of hybrids prefer creating their fry in the most difficult and costly way possible. I'd also like to know how these fish are sold so cheaply if this is indeed the case.

Anyway, keyholes and labs, almost beyond any shadow of a doubt, are genetically incompatible. Even if they were, they are behaviourally incompatible. Think of it as trying to breed a cow with a horse.

 

[GuppyDude]

i dont know a whole lot about cichlids, but i can positivly say that if the info pica_nuttalli just put out there is right, not even god himself can cross breed those fish not to shoot you down or anything, i think you ahve the right head for cross breeding fish and geeting what u want out of the project, but those 2 fish just cant happen

 

[Just40Fun]

The common hybrids you see have been genetically engineered in labs and created through generations of tweaking - they did not simply throw a couple of fish together - and they used fish with much more in common then the two you've chosen.

Anyway, keyholes and labs, almost beyond any shadow of a doubt, are genetically incompatible. Even if they were, they are behaviourally incompatible. Think of it as trying to breed a cow with a horse.

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Hehe, I am sure that someone have seen a crazy tried to mount a cow I suspect keyhole male lab famale might have sightly more chance of doing it than lab male keyhole female. What do you guys think?

But seriously, 3-4" blood parrots are selling in retail in San Franciso for $5. There must be a way for the farms to mass produce these fishes. I do think the hobbies benefited by having blood parrots, a decent sized bright colored fish that can co-exist with angelfish or african cichlids. Most owner love them for their friendliness and playfulness.

 

[GuppyDude]

this is true but once again parrots weren't created over night by some guy throwing 2 totally differant fish together, there had to be many generations and plenty of trials and errors before breeders finally created something that would work, it definately took an advanced knowledge of the species to get it to work.

but the arguement isn't as much as "can it be done" as it is "should it be done" the fry from such a pairing would not likely survive and would be very weak. the farther the 2 fish are apart frome eachother genetically, the less liekly it will be that they product will be healthy fish.

 

[freddyk]

Synirr, think of it this way. After spending millions and millions of dollars on the DVD technology, I can go pick up a dvd player for a mere 40 bucks. Several years ago, they cost upwards of a thousand.

Parrots were not common, nor were they cheap, when they first came out, (flowhorns continue to be pricey) but once they figured out and mastered the 'technology' the prices were easily driven down, like the DVD player, and made available to the common public.

Coming up with such bold colors and awkward shapes, and in some cases specific patterns considered lucky by the creaters, is not as simple as combining two fish. Try it yourself with two purebred fish that people tend to guess are in these hybrids (since nobody seems to know for sure), and see what you get.

It takes a lot of work to get them this way, and a lot of experimenting. They develop them to look like how they want them too - big humps, small humps, short tails, long tails, no tails, kinked backs, fat bellies... I'd think it would be fairly obvious just by looking at these creatures and the crazy varieties you can get them in.

 

[juanveldez]

I have seen cross genus breeding though I don't think it would happen too well trying to breed a lab and a keyhole

 

[Synirr]

Synirr, think of it this way.  After spending millions and millions of dollars on the DVD technology, I can go pick up a dvd player for a mere 40 bucks.  Several years ago, they cost upwards of a thousand.

Parrots were not common, nor were they cheap, when they first came out, (flowhorns continue to be pricey) but once they figured out and mastered the 'technology' the prices were easily driven down, like the DVD player, and made available to the common public.

Coming up with such bold colors and awkward shapes, and in some cases specific patterns considered lucky by the creaters, is not as simple as combining two fish.  Try it yourself with two purebred fish that people tend to guess are in these hybrids (since nobody seems to know for sure), and see what you get. 

It takes a lot of work to get them this way, and a lot of experimenting.  They develop them to look like how they want them too - big humps, small humps, short tails, long tails, no tails, kinked backs, fat bellies...  I'd think it would be fairly obvious just by looking at these creatures and the crazy varieties you can get them in.

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I see your point about prices being cheap even with the technology you claim is involved, but still, why would you do it the hardest way possible when there are other methods? Where blood parrots are concerned, I think it very well may be as simple as combining two fish. Being that the males are (except in very, very rare cases) infertile, it's not very practical to say that they were line bred, is it? Perhaps they are a combination of multiple cichlid species like flowerhorns are, but what I'm saying is that the breeding of these fish can be done without a lab. I honestly don't believe we're talking about rocket science here.

I have entertained the idea of crossbreeding a midas and sev if I had the time or facilities, but I do not. I also question the morality of producing a fish as deformed as a blood parrot. Blood parrots happily cross with convicts, and my midas hybrid would happily cross with my oscar if their breeding habits were similar enough (but they can't agree on where the eggs should be laid). What I'm saying is that there is no reason I can see why the fish blood parrots are produced from couldn't just be crossbreed in an aquarium. Seems a lot simpler and less costly than involving a lab, doesn't it?

"I'd think it would be fairly obvious just by looking at these creatures and the crazy varieties you can get them in."
Look at what has been done to goldfish to produce all the fancy varieties... are you going to tell me those were produced in a lab as well? What about all the varying breeds of dogs? Those are completely unnatural man-made variations, and they're far more wild and wacky than any hybrid fish I've seen as of late... and guess what? No labs involved. Selective breeding, my friend.

I'm going to go back to what I said in my original post:
I'm wondering if you actually have any evidence of this, or if it's just some theory you've come up with in your head.

 

[Just40Fun]

I wouldn't be too surprised that the 'original' blood parrot was an 'accident' that happened in one of the farms in the far east. Needless to say, the result was a pleasant surprise. The merchants then identified BP as a saleable commodity.

I think the 'engineering' happened at that point, i.e. how to mass produce the original little accident. By now, years later, someone have mastered that. Therefore the drop in price.

Flowerhorn on the other hand, may actually started from someone's 'design'. After the success of BP. The farms tried an encore.

 

[Opcn]

As apose to cheeper genetic engineering capabilities I believe that they simply built up the parent stock, Genetic engineering isnt as easy as they make it out to be, even in an assembly line it would still cost thousands of dollars for sucessful animal, and if not the fish breeders could make about ten times what they aqre making now working in science fields, No I'll bet that what drove down the price was the spread of information regarding lineadge

 

[afireinside]

wow, i doubt this'll work too, but good luck!