New Member With Ammonia, Nitrite Problems And Two Dead Black Moor.

[MouldyOldDough]

Hi, new member here with tank problems as above.

I have had this 64L Lovefish tank for just under a year with no major issues. I had 3 Fantails, 1 Lionhead and 2 Black Moor. Recently, the water has been cloudy and the fish have been lying on the bottom of the tank. I took a water sample to my local Pets At Home in Stirling on Saturday and they found the following:

PH 7.0
Ammonia 2.0
Nitrite .50
Nitrate 5.0

The ammonia and nitrite levels are the problem and I have been doing water changes to try to reduce these levels. Since last night, I have lost the two Black Moor and the Lionhead is still on the bottom of the tank. The others have perked up and have been swimming around.

I have had the odd moment of bloom in the time I have had the tank but this has cleared within a couple of days. Since I've never experienced this level of distress in my fish, this level of chemical analysis is new to me.

There are a possible few contributing factors to the state of my tank. I had been on holiday for a fortnight and left the tank with an automatic feeder. Aside from a fair bit of algae, the fish were fine and healthy and swimming around as normal. Maybe I had been overzealous with the cleaning of the tank after being away? I also think I may have made the mistake of changing the filter at the same time as cleaning the tank. I have also added some new plants and also a couple of plecs to help with the algae (and to add some new life to the tank). I had been feeding them the sinking tablets, which the fish also seemed to devour.

My question is how do I save the rest of my fish? I did a 30% change last night after I found the first Black Moor when I came home from work, and another 50% this morning after the second Black Moor went during the night. Any help is much appreciated.

 

[fluttermoth]

Hello, welcome to the forum, and I'm sorry for your losses

I'm afraid I'm not going to have very good news for you

Your little tank is badly overstocked and that is why you're seeing so many problems. There are a few key things you need to address.

The first is 'changing the filter'. When you say this, do you mean replacing the 'media' (that's all the stuff inside the filter; sponges, or ceramic rings or rocks)? You should never replace the stuff inside the filter, as its on there that the good bacteria (that eat the ammonia produced by the fish) grow. From now on, just rinse it in some old tank water; don't try and get it looking like new, just take of the solid dirt. By replacing the media, you're throwing out those good bacteria, and the ammonia will build up to dangerous levels. Growing those good bacteria is what we call 'cycling', and your tank is now not cycled. If you look in our 'Cycle your Tank' sub forum, here; http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/forum/291-cycle-your-tank/ you'll find a couple of articles called 'How to Rescue a Fish in Cycle gone Wild', which would be of great use to you right now.

Your next major issue is the stocking. I'm afraid fancy goldfish need big tanks and big filters. We normally recommend a minimum of a 100l for one, with another 40l for each additional fish (so two fancies need 140l, three, 180l, for four 220l etc).

I'm also extremely worried about the 'plecs'. There are thousands of species of plec, some of which can grow very large. I think you've most likely got so-called 'Hong Kong pleco' or 'butterfly pleco' as these are often sold for cold water tanks. Unfortunately, apart from not being plecs at all; they're really hillstream loach, they have very specific requirements; very fast flowing, highly oxygenated water, which the goldies wouldn't be able to deal with

I'm really sorry I can't be more positive. Keep up the testing and the water changes, and you should be able to pull the fish through this crisis (although I can't promise; exposure to high levels of ammonia and nitrite can permanently damage fish) but you are going to need to either rehome the fish (your tank would be a good size for some smaller tropical fish, which are not delicate, or difficult to keep) or get a much larger tank.

Good luck, and do post again if you have any more questions, or if anything isn't 100% clear to you; we know all this stuff can be very confusing at first.

Oh, and don't blame yourself! We see people in the same position as you on a regular basis; usually due to shop people caring more about making a sale than the long term welfare of the fish, sadly, and many of them end up excellent fishkeepers with happy, healthy tanks.

 

[MouldyOldDough]

Thanks for your response.
 
It seems I have been continually mis-informed and mis-sold about the suitable contents of my tank. I don't have room for a bigger one, so that is a problem. It is this filter kit http/www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/fish/fish-tank-equipment---maintenance/fish-tank-cleaning/love-fish-panorama-service-kit-64l-1-month that should be replaced every 28 days. It has been perfectly fine up until now, and I think I might have screwed up at the last clean when I changed the filter at the same time and this has disturbed the balance of the tank. I nipped home at lunchtime and the water seems to be better with two of the fantails looking more perky and swimming around. The other fantail and lionhead are still on the bottom of the tank. Hopefully they will pull through and I can get them rehoused. I think I will take the "plecs" back to the shop, and avoid the place in future. There is an independent shop in Stirling that I am going to this afternoon to get some more advice and get another sample tested.

 

[fluttermoth]

Yes, filter manufacturers always say the media needs replacing, but this is just a ploy to get more money out of you, I'm afraid. It's not in the best interests of your fish; I have sponges and ceramic rings that have been in constant use for well over 20 years!

If you get a shop to test the water for you, do make sure they write down the actual numbers; very often they'll say, "it's fine" or, " a little high", and that's not of much use. Longer term, you should really invest in test kits of your own; you can't always get to a shop to get it tested if you have a problem! As most fish health issues are water quality related, a set of decent test kits are something every fishkeeper should have; and by 'decent', I mean ones that use tablets or liquids and test tubes; the paper dip strip types are not very accurate, and often don't include an ammonia test, which is vital.
 
Until you get kits, I would suggest daily water changes, of at least 50%, preferably more, to ensure the ammonia and nitrite don't rise too high.

Best of luck rehoming the goldies; it's always difficult to give up an animal you've cared for, but it will be in their best interests and, as I said, there are a lot of tropical fish who would be perfectly happy in a tank of that size.

 

[Marty.h]

Hi

Im new to fish keeping and am where you are now but the levels are now within a safe margin in my tank. The advice you get here will be spot on.

with regards to a test kit I got this one and appears to do a good job its around £40 but you get what you pay for

 

[MouldyOldDough]

Thanks for all the informative responses.
 
I will be giving PAH a wide berth from now on, and it is interesting to find out the truth about the filter media replacement. I suppose it is like the razor blade model of continual revenue stream from them when it is not required. To be honest, even with replacing them monthly, my tank has been fine and I think it is just the combination of situations that has caused this cycling. I will be more careful in future and take all the advice offered here.
 
My local independent shop was very helpful and their tests showed that the levels had dropped. I was going to do another 50% change last night but she advised to leave it until today, so I did it this morning. The same two fantails are even more lively and looking much healthier. The other two are still lurking on the bottom but with occasional swims around the tank, which I suppose is heartening. The shop advised that I would probably be ok with the number of fish I have now so I will see how that goes.
 
I will only rinse the filters in future and pick up my own test kit. 

 

[fluttermoth]

The shop advised that I would probably be ok with the number of fish I have now so I will see how that goes.

I'm afraid they are wrong

You have to remember that shops are just not the best places to get advice; there's always an element of "how much stuff can we sell to this person" involved.

Fancy goldfish should not be in any tank of less than 100l, as they grow much larger than people realise;







Those fish are normal, pet shop fancies that have been kept in properly sized tanks, which have allowed then to grow to their full potential. They are [/i]not[/i] anything special, or different breeds, just normal fish. If your fish are a year old, they ought to be almost that size already

If they aren't, it because being kept in a tank that's too small for them has stunted their growth. Stunting does not mean that 'fish only grow to the size of the tank'; it causes long term health issues and deformities.

I apologise if that comes over as harsh; I honestly don't mean it to be. I know you care about these fish, or you wouldn't have come here asking for help; I'm just concerned that you're getting a continuation of poor advice that is clouding a major issue.

 

[MouldyOldDough]

 

The shop advised that I would probably be ok with the number of fish I have now so I will see how that goes.

I'm afraid they are wrong

You have to remember that shops are just not the best places to get advice; there's always an element of "how much stuff can we sell to this person" involved.

Fancy goldfish should not be in any tank of less than 100l, as they grow much larger than people realise;







Those fish are normal, pet shop fancies that have been kept in properly sized tanks, which have allowed then to grow to their full potential. They are [/i]not[/i] anything special, or different breeds, just normal fish. If your fish are a year old, they ought to be almost that size already

If they aren't, it because being kept in a tank that's too small for them has stunted their growth. Stunting does not mean that 'fish only grow to the size of the tank'; it causes long term health issues and deformities.

I apologise if that comes over as harsh; I honestly don't mean it to be. I know you care about these fish, or you wouldn't have come here asking for help; I'm just concerned that you're getting a continuation of poor advice that is clouding a major issue.
 

 
Jesus!
 
I never knew that and they never mentioned anything. They are all only about 2-3 inches in length.

 

[fluttermoth]

It's not something that shops like to mention, as most people buy goldies because they're cheap and 'easy' (and shops make a lot of profit from selling to beginners) and if people realised how big they grow, and the care they need, they would be put off buying altogether.

It's a great shame that most people think of tropicals as incredibly difficult and delicate, when they are no more difficult than goldies and are, in fact, easier in many ways, and certainly can be kept in the small tanks that most people start off with.

But this is the way of the world, sadly

Fish just don't get the same level of care and protection that the 'furries' do 

 

[MouldyOldDough]

So you would advise rehoming the ones I have (that pull through), and going down the route of smaller tropical fish? The local shop did have some beautiful little fish, but then should I trust them if they have given me more wrong advice?

 

[fluttermoth]

I would very strongly advise you to rehome the goldies, if you can't run to a larger tank, yes.
 
I wouldn't trust any shop, tbh! If you'd like to keep some tropicals, the best thing to do is have a look around the shop, make a list of the fish you like the look of, and then come on here and we can tell you whether they'll be suitable for you or not
 
Do you happen to know if your water is hard or soft?

 

[MouldyOldDough]

I would very strongly advise you to rehome the goldies, if you can't run to a larger tank, yes.
 
I wouldn't trust any shop, tbh! If you'd like to keep some tropicals, the best thing to do is have a look around the shop, make a list of the fish you like the look of, and then come on here and we can tell you whether they'll be suitable for you or not

 
Do you happen to know if your water is hard or soft?

 
Results Summary Table
Site Name: Turret C
Download Last 12 Months Detailed Report
Sample Period: 01/07/2013 to 30/06/2014
Download Last Calendar Year Detailed Report
Param. Name No. of Results PCV Std Units of Measure No. of Results Failing % Compliance Turbidity 51 4 NTU 0 100 Aluminium 52 200 µgAl/l 0 100 Iron 52 200 µgFe/l 0 100 Manganese 52 50 µgMn/l 0 100 E. coli (Faecal coliforms) 147 0 CFU in 100ml 0 100 Total Trihalomethanes 8 100 µg/l 0 100
 
This is from the Scottish Water site for Stirling - does that help? So I would still buy them locally on the advice from here? Or would I buy mail order? Can you do that with fish?
 
Edit: Apparently I live in a soft water area.

 

[fluttermoth]

It is best to buy fish locally, if possible, as the travelling time will be less and you get to see the actual fish. However, if you decide you want something rarer or more exotic, buying mail order, from a reputable seller, is fine as well (I've bought many fish online). They are sent by overnight courier, bagged up in polystyrene boxes with heat pads, not the normal post!
 
The reason for asking about your water hardness is that fish do best in water that is similar to that they evolved to live in naturally. Hard water fish, especially, do very poorly in water that is too soft.

 

[MouldyOldDough]

Well, the bottom sitting fantail took it's last breath last night as I was doing the water change. It was such a shame to see as it had been mobile recently. There was also one of the plecs gone too. Hopefully I will receive my test kit today or else I'll take a sample back to the shop for testing and ask for specific numbers.
 
On the positive, the bottom sitting Lionhead is very mobile and looking lively although his eyes don't seem very clear. Can there have been damage done to it's eyes under the circumstances or is it only internals that get damaged? I suppose they could be cloudy due to poor health? He has been very mobile since last night, almost to where he was before all this started.

 

[fluttermoth]

Sorry to hear of your losses
 
Cloudy eyes are a common side effect of poor water quality, yes, but they can get better. Keep up the water changes and keep your fingers crossed is really all you can do at this stage.