New Member, New Tank, New Hobby, New Questions!

[One Armed Bandit]

hello

my 11 year old son received a tank for his birthday [without asking me, yay.] and now i apparently have a new hobby.

the tank is a 40 gal hex with a 40-50 gal marineland canister, and we've decided it will be a tropical community tank.

it's been up and running since june - we did a fishless cycling, and slowly added fish. so far, we've got:

2 plecos
5 zebra danios
2 glowfish[?]
1 swordtail
2 mollies
2 platys

i've had quite the time with this thing, despite the fact that i didn't want it in the first place. now, i'm completely enamored with the hobby and my little fish, and need some advice to keep them healthy and alive.

i've googled and read quite a bit, but i'm obviously doing something wrong - so hopefully someone here has had some experience with these issues and can pass off what they've learned. here are the problems i'm having:

* my ammonia and nitrite levels spike directly after i gravel-vac. what's the correct process to this, and how often should i do it?
* how long should i wait before adding new fish?
* i've read that a male betta can live peacefully in a community tank - true or false?
* i've been reading about bubble curtains. how do i know if i need one, and what criteria should i consider in buying one/setting it up

i've had a couple of fish die in the last few days due to high ammonia/nitrite levels, and i'm not quite sure what's going on. sadly, a lot was being done to the tank/fish before i really knew what i was doing, because someone told me fish were easy to keep

...now that i know better, i'd like to get better at what i'm doing.

any help is greatly appreciated =)

 

[murphyk32]

Welcome to the forum... somebody will be round to help soon...

Murph

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

Hi, and welcome!


First off let me tell you a little, and ask some questions. You have a little bit of a stocking problem. I imagine the Pleco is common? Common Plecos can get to be almost 2 feet long in some cases! These fish need a very big tank (bigger then 40 gallons) and not giving them one will result in stunting the fish (fish can't get as big as expected and lives a short, miserable life.) Mollies, are best kept in brakish water (small amount of marine salt, almost half fresh half salt.) Although they may be able to live in the freshwater tank, they will flourish in brackish. I recommend re homing these fish to a better suited home (not that you aren't doing a good job) or taking them back to the pet shop. Plecos also produce a huge amount of waste!

Let me answer some of those questions for you!

I am not certain why your Ammonia/Nitrite would spike after a gravel vacuum! It may be caused because of the nitrifying bacteria that grows in the gravel, although most is found in the filter, so i'm not sure why it would matter! I would hold off vacuuming for a little, after a month or so you can go back to doing it weekly or once every two weeks (although a water chance of at least 25 percent will be needed to be taken out once a week.)

With a well cycled tank, I recommend adding 1 or 2 fish per week at maximum.

Male Betta fish (Betta Splenden) may or may not be able to live in a community tank without wreaking havoc. It's best to try to keep them with slower moving, less colorful fish, so they don't get confused as another betta and get attacked! I have heard of people (along with myself) who have successfully kept Bettas in a community, although the odd nightmare story creeps up from time to time. Female Bettas may also be an option. Unlike males, they can be kept in groups (4+) and aren't as aggressive.

Bubble curtains can be used to increase surface agitation, along with oxygen in the water. If your filter is working, then these aren't really needed. A lot of people use them for decoration. Fish may also enjoy swimming through it, or "riding" it to the top of the tank.

If I where to guess why you are having Ammonia/Nitrite problems, is because the tank wasn't' properly cycled? Although, in that case wouldn't it normally be ammonia problem only? If this is the case, Plecos may be the worst thing to have at the moment!

Hope I shed some light on the situation.

Cheers,

DL

 

[LineDropper]

I am the last guy that could help you --- all I can say is good luck. I got into this hobby because the 6 fish my daughter won at our local carnivals the past 2 years all dies within a couple weeks. I bought her a 10 gallon starter set and I now have 4 aquariums! haha. So I understand how you got sucked into this hobby!

There are a lot of people here who can help!

 

[One Armed Bandit]

Hi, and welcome!

thanks!

First off let me tell you a little, and ask some questions. You have a little bit of a stocking problem. I imagine the Pleco is common? Common Plecos can get to be almost 2 feet long in some cases! These fish need a very big tank (bigger then 40 gallons) and not giving them one will result in stunting the fish (fish can't get as big as expected and lives a short, miserable life.) Mollies, are best kept in brakish water (small amount of marine salt, almost half fresh half salt.) Although they may be able to live in the freshwater tank, they will flourish in brackish. I recommend re homing these fish to a better suited home (not that you aren't doing a good job) or taking them back to the pet shop. Plecos also produce a huge amount of waste!

yup, common plecos. i'll get on the rehoming right away. can you recommend another appropriate bottom feeder to help out with waste [assuming i'm even right in thinking that's what they do]?

Let me answer some of those questions for you!

again, thanks! your detailed response is appreciated

I am not certain why your Ammonia/Nitrite would spike after a gravel vacuum! It may be caused because of the nitrifying bacteria that grows in the gravel, although most is found in the filter, so i'm not sure why it would matter! I would hold off vacuuming for a little, after a month or so you can go back to doing it weekly or once every two weeks (although a water chance of at least 25 percent will be needed to be taken out once a week.)

maybe i'm stirring too much of it up when vacuuming? at any rate, i'll hold off on that, while continuing with my normal water changes @ 25% each week.

With a well cycled tank, I recommend adding 1 or 2 fish per week at maximum.

okay, i'm on point there.

Male Betta fish (Betta Splenden) may or may not be able to live in a community tank without wreaking havoc. It's best to try to keep them with slower moving, less colorful fish, so they don't get confused as another betta and get attacked! I have heard of people (along with myself) who have successfully kept Bettas in a community, although the odd nightmare story creeps up from time to time. Female Bettas may also be an option. Unlike males, they can be kept in groups (4+) and aren't as aggressive.

maybe we'll try some females then...

Bubble curtains can be used to increase surface agitation, along with oxygen in the water. If your filter is working, then these aren't really needed. A lot of people use them for decoration. Fish may also enjoy swimming through it, or "riding" it to the top of the tank.

i have a feeling it isn't working properly, and my helper guy at petco thinks the same. i can't remember what he said ... some fish genius stuff...but the end result was that i needed a bubble curtain.

If I where to guess why you are having Ammonia/Nitrite problems, is because the tank wasn't' properly cycled? Although, in that case wouldn't it normally be ammonia problem only? If this is the case, Plecos may be the worst thing to have at the moment!

i personally can't tell you that i did the right thing when cycling, because i have no idea what i did. upon receiving the tank, i went to petco to talk to the fish people there. i ended up connecting with an incredibly generous and fish-smart guy who brought me some rock the next day, told me what to do, and asked me to return to him in 3 weeks with a sample. i did, and he sold me some fish after pronouncing my water perfect.

Hope I shed some light on the situation.

you did, i think thanks! ... i always think i have this figured out, until i wake up in the morning to a dead fish or two

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

Well, IMO most plecos do more harm then good (for a clean up crew that is.) These fish do suck up waste, but they need to be fed also, and that feeding, along with large amounts of waste, may not benefit much. Try some smaller Plecos if you like them Here are some plecos that stay small, and can suite your tank. If you want some other fish personally I would recommend Corydora, although a bunch of others should work.

I recommend not taking LFS employees info to heart. A lot of these chain stores have horrid fish store employees only telling you stuff that will sell you their products. I would ask around here if you have any questions, rather then the pet stores! This bubble curtain proves my point, because I can't see why on earth you would need one!

From what I understand, only pure ammonia will cycle a tank (liquid ammonia can be found at most hardware stores). I'm not sure what this rock stuff is, but it looks like it didn't do the job.

 

[Tolak]

A couple of questions; what are you using to treat the replacement water, and what is your feeding schedule, type of food and quantity for these fish?

A group of corys would work out well for keeping excess food off of the bottom. With a tall tank like a hex you have to stock a little lighter than a standard 40, and think more about the levels in the tank that certain species prefer. The corys would stay mainly on the bottom, the danios, platys, & sword would tend to stay towards the middle, and a few bettas (female), being labyrinth fish, would stay towards the top.

I agree with rehoming the plecs & mollys, the only trouble you may encounter after that is the danios or sword getting a bit nippy towards the bettas.

If you like the bubble curtain look, by all means set one up. It certainly can't hurt with a tall tank, as you have less surface area per gallon, which can lead to low O2 levels, especially towards the bottom. The bubble curtain will increase circulation at the bottom, as well as increasing surface agitation, which will help with oxygenating the water.

There are no fish that will eat waste off of the bottom, but the corys will take care of excess food. Deteriorating food, especially if it is suddenly stirred up such as when doing a gravel vac, can raise the ammonia & nitrites temporarily, until the bio filtration can convert it to nitrate.

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

There are no fish that will eat waste off of the bottom, but the corys will take care of excess food.

Thats what I meant.

 

[One Armed Bandit]

A couple of questions; what are you using to treat the replacement water, and what is your feeding schedule, type of food and quantity for these fish?

i'm using stress coat, and a water conditioner whose name eludes me at the moment. i was feeding twice a day - i don't believe i was overfeeding - but, due to ammonia problem, i've cut the feeding to once a day. i feed them as much as they can eat in about two minutes, and the brand is omega one.

A group of corys would work out well for keeping excess food off of the bottom. With a tall tank like a hex you have to stock a little lighter than a standard 40, and think more about the levels in the tank that certain species prefer. The corys would stay mainly on the bottom, the danios, platys, & sword would tend to stay towards the middle, and a few bettas (female), being labyrinth fish, would stay towards the top.

I agree with rehoming the plecs & mollys, the only trouble you may encounter after that is the danios or sword getting a bit nippy towards the bettas.

crazy @ the mollys. they seem to be doing the best out of the lot of them. the swordtail seems a bit slow and content to follow my finger, but the danios are troublemakers - that much i can see.

If you like the bubble curtain look, by all means set one up. It certainly can't hurt with a tall tank, as you have less surface area per gallon, which can lead to low O2 levels, especially towards the bottom. The bubble curtain will increase circulation at the bottom, as well as increasing surface agitation, which will help with oxygenating the water.

any recommendations on the proper set up of a bubble curtain?

There are no fish that will eat waste off of the bottom, but the corys will take care of excess food. Deteriorating food, especially if it is suddenly stirred up such as when doing a gravel vac, can raise the ammonia & nitrites temporarily, until the bio filtration can convert it to nitrate.

i'll look into getting some corys. how long should i wait after my tank settles down to add new fish?

Well, IMO most plecos do more harm then good (for a clean up crew that is.) These fish do suck up waste, but they need to be fed also, and that feeding, along with large amounts of waste, may not benefit much. Try some smaller Plecos if you like them Here are some plecos that stay small, and can suite your tank. If you want some other fish personally I would recommend Corydora, although a bunch of others should work.

thanks again!

I recommend not taking LFS employees info to heart. A lot of these chain stores have horrid fish store employees only telling you stuff that will sell you their products. I would ask around here if you have any questions, rather then the pet stores! This bubble curtain proves my point, because I can't see why on earth you would need one! sleep.gif

i was worried about that as well, considering me believing them certainly benefits them more than me not, but he came highly recommended by folks who drive far out of their way simply for his help. he's talked me out of buying things i don't need, and helped me find things cheaper than retail. he's on the team

From what I understand, only pure ammonia will cycle a tank (liquid ammonia can be found at most hardware stores). I'm not sure what this rock stuff is, but it looks like it didn't do the job.

it was actually substrate in a stocking from his tank, if that makes any sense.


...thanks so much for the responses!

 

[Tolak]

Omega One is one of the better flake foods out there, and one I rotate in my feeding schedule. I read somewhere long ago that a fish’s stomach is about the size of its eye; this seems to be a pretty good guesstimate at the quantity to feed. It is always better to underfeed than to overfeed, feeding once daily for a while sure can’t hurt.

I haven’t set up a bubble curtain in a while, but when I had a couple going they were the long, pencil diameter bluish tubes that can be purchased in different lengths. They look better buried slightly beneath the gravel, at the back of the tank. This gives the impression of bubbles just coming out of the gravel, and is even better if you can hide the air line tubing behind a decoration. Seeing as it is a deeper tank, make sure the pump you get can handle that depth, deeper water needs more pressure.

I would wait until a couple of weeks after the water tests come back with zero ammonia & zero nitrites until adding any more fish. Once in a while you do find someone knowledgeable at a corporate store, I have a Petco near me that has a woman that is really on the ball. Too bad the folks that deal with dogs at the same shop aren’t as good; they need to read some of the books they sell.


The substrate in a sock is a good, and common trick to transfer nitrifying bacteria to a cycling tank.

BTW, welcome to TFF!

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

Used filter media is another good way for transferring nitrifying bacteria. http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=150631

 

[One Armed Bandit]

i'm afraid this is a very silly question, but, i'll brave it anyway:

my filter smells, somewhat. not bad, just worse than it did when i got it.

i've read the topics on weekly/monthly/daily care and such, so just let me clarify this matter [because it does differ from what i was told at a fish store, go figure]

...

i don't have to change the flossing every month or two, right? i actually didn't even know i had to do anything with that at all until just a few days ago , so then i called the fish store, and they [not my geniusboy] said, "oh yeah, change that [the floss] every two weeks" - but i've read in a thread that all i need to do is rinse the floss out in some of the old water during a water change. because i haven't done that, could that be why it's smelling? the tank doesn't smell at all, just the cabinet where the filter is stored.

my ammonia and nitrites are looking better today. i'm going out tomorrow to buy an actual kit, rather than these blasted test strips i've been using since most references in the threads are in PPM.

thanks for your help, everyone.

 

[One Armed Bandit]

Used filter media is another good way for transferring nitrifying bacteria. http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=150631

i saw that, thanks!

i didn't see his name on the list, but i did see in someone's signature that they'd be willing to donate media in the seattle, wa area [which is where i'm at], but now i can't find him

 

[Tolak]

You can rinse the floss in used tank water, or tap water that has been dechlorinated. When it comes time to replace it, only replace about 1/3 to 1/2 of the media at one time. This will help to prevent ammonia & nitrite spikes. The smell may be from spilled tank water, which contains bacteria that can make a pretty nasty smell if left without cleaning with some disinfectant. I use 1 part bleach to 20 parts water for cleaning up spills.

The liquid tests are much more accurate than the strips. I've shipped media before, the shorter time in transit the better. If you can find someone in the NW US area who would be willing to ship some I can give you instructions on how I've done this in the past.

 

[One Armed Bandit]

You can rinse the floss in used tank water, or tap water that has been dechlorinated. When it comes time to replace it, only replace about 1/3 to 1/2 of the media at one time. This will help to prevent ammonia & nitrite spikes. The smell may be from spilled tank water, which contains bacteria that can make a pretty nasty smell if left without cleaning with some disinfectant. I use 1 part bleach to 20 parts water for cleaning up spills.

i'll try the bleach thing tomorrow, and see if that doesn't clear up the smell. don't know why i didn't think of that first.

The liquid tests are much more accurate than the strips. I've shipped media before, the shorter time in transit the better. If you can find someone in the NW US area who would be willing to ship some I can give you instructions on how I've done this in the past.

thanks, i'll get on the horn looking for someone