New England Tide Pool Tank?

[Betta_Shark5678]

Hello!
 
I recently attended a two week Oceanography summer camp near Bar Harbor, Maine, during which we setup 10 gallon tanks with creatures we found in tide pools and had to keep notes about them.  We were not allowed to feed the creatures in the tanks, so we had a special list of required creatures for food, and optional creatures to eat the others.  The only equipment used in this tank was a bubbler, and water was only added the first day, no water changes because we were taking water from the ocean, and it was too much work for the number of tanks we had.
 
What I'd like to do is create my own tank similar to those.  It would be a cold water marine tank, with tidal changes if possible.  The whole not feeding thing was cool, and I'm probably would feed them, but I'd like to keep it as natural as possible.  
What I had in my tank was:
Northern Rock Barnacles (Semibalanus balanoides)
Blue Mussels (Mytilis edulis)
Green Crabs (Carcinus maenas)
Dog Whelks (Nucella lapillus)
Common Periwinkles (Littorina littorea)
Scuds (Gammarus sp.) 
The only plant we had was Hollow Green Algae (Enteromorpha sp.)
 
Other things we could have put in (if we had found them) :
Green Sea Urchin (Stronglyocentrotus droebachiensis)
Tortoiseshell Limpets (Acmaea testudinalis)
Northern Seastar (Asterias vulgaris)
Rock Gunnel (Pholis gunnellus)
and possibly a Frilled Anemone (Metridium senile)
 
I know next to nothing about Salt water aquariums.  I've read a little bit about them, but I've never really considered keeping them until now.  
Has anyone else done this kind of tank?  
What would you consider the minimum for supplies, and do you have any ideas for how to simulate the tides?  I've been looking into it, and I've found some cool designs, but I'm looking for more input!
How can I add plankton if I decide not to collect water from the ocean, and is there something else I could feed things like mussels, and barnacles?
What size tank would you recommend?  I can find most size tanks up to 75 gallons for around $100-300 or less easily! Though I'm not sure how my parents would react if I asked for a 75 gallon tide pool tank 

 30 is probably the biggest I'll be able to get, while "can't you just get another 10 gallon?" or "what about your empty 6.6 gallon tank?" will be the first questions out of their mouths.
 
Sorry for any stupid seeming questions, I'm a completely newb when it comes to marine tanks.  I'm headed into uncharted waters (lol), so I need as much help as I can get to go along with my research!! Thank you sooo much!

 

[DerpPH]

One way to feed barnacles and mussels is to feed them coral food or some.clam formula.

 

[Betta_Shark5678]

Thanks Derp.  I'll keep that in mind!

 

[Donya]

I recently attended a two week Oceanography summer camp near Bar Harbor, Maine, during which we setup 10 gallon tanks with creatures we found in tide pools and had to keep notes about them.  We were not allowed to feed the creatures in the tanks, so we had a special list of required creatures for food, and optional creatures to eat the others.  The only equipment used in this tank was a bubbler, and water was only added the first day, no water changes because we were taking water from the ocean, and it was too much work for the number of tanks we had.

 
 
TBH these do not sound at all like stable systems that would work long-term. As a temporary experiment lasting only a few days I can understand it in a class setting, but as a long-standing tank it's a very bad way to go and would easily result in unnecessary animal attrition (animals like mussels may well die of starvation even if not eaten). Please don't attempt to do something like this as a very first long-term marine system if your goal is to care for the animals you collect long term. You will be much safer going with a more standard setup and feeding the tank even if it is coldwater or room temperature with locally collected animals.
 
Several of the animals you've listed are very difficult to care for, even in tanks where they are well-fed. I cannot recommend any true starfish (the one you've listed may well eat everything in the tank anyway and leave you with a species tank) for a first marine tank. Similarly I would recommend staying away from sea anemones and the Strongylocentrotus urchins as both of those have a bad captive record. They are kept successfully at some public aquariums, but the setups are always quite specialized and/or much larger than 30gal.
 
Filter feeders like barnacles and mussels will starve unless fed in any aquarium. You cannot avoid dosing with plankton when keeping animals like mussels. The smaller the tank, the harder it is to keep them alive. Many filter feeding bivalves die in even quite mature and large reef tanks unless they have plankton supplements thrown at them in large quantities. Also be aware that collection of the mussels on your list is restricted in some areas and state or town regulated/licensed in others. 
 
A green crab will eat everything else in the tank with it. If you add one of those, you will end up with a green crab species tank. Those are fun in themselves and I recommend that as a first saltwater tank if you like those crabs - just don't put anything in with it that you don't want to watch get torn apart. All you need to keep a green crab is a large critter keeper (a clamped or heavy lid is a must!!! I had one climb out and follow me down a hallway - they can escape up power cords and airline within seconds when they want to), a small pump, a bit of live rock (do NOT collect this from the beach) and some substrate. Weekly water changes and off you go. If you like crabs, they can be very entertaining and inexpensive to keep. They are also quite tolerant of environmental swings and do not need a chiller.
 
If you don't want a crab tank, I recommend looking into Pagurus longicarpus as they can be kept with snails and bivalves with more success.
 
 
 

I know next to nothing about Salt water aquariums.  I've read a little bit about them, but I've never really considered keeping them until now.  
Has anyone else done this kind of tank?  

 
 
I have had quite a number of unheated tanks with native fauna over time. You can do it, but for stability it really needs to be like a standard marine tank with just a different collection of animals. 
 
 
 

What would you consider the minimum for supplies, and do you have any ideas for how to simulate the tides?  I've been looking into it, and I've found some cool designs, but I'm looking for more input!

 
 
See here: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/410541-marine-aquarium-faq/
and here: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421015-common-marine-tank-equipment/
No difference between tropical and coldwater for the most part except for heaters vs. chillers and the fact that high-quality LR with a lot of life will die off when cold, so it's better to go for pretty blah-looking rock. I strongly recommend against trying to set up tidal conditions in a first marine tank because of the added planning difficulty and the fact that many tidal animals don't actually "need" tides to survive. I have never attempted it for that reason and I've been keeping saltwater stuff for many years now. I  have seen a couple of tidal tank setups, but setting up one of those in a small volume of water as a first marine tank really seems like a recipe for disaster to me.
 
 
 

How can I add plankton if I decide not to collect water from the ocean, and is there something else I could feed things like mussels, and barnacles?

 
 
Don't use seawater. The dieoff and resulting organic pollution can be horrendous from water collected off the New England coasts - I know this firsthand. The waste added and risk of water chemistry going foul is not worth the it for a long-term system. You will want to either culture your own phytoplankton in bottles/tubs or get concentrated supplements for it. 
 
 

What size tank would you recommend?

 
 
Bigger is more stable. However, 100gal for some Pagurus longicarpus and snails could be kind of boring-looking. If you do invert-only, you can set up a nano for some native fauna pretty easily as long as the stocking is very, very sparse. The hardiness of some of the tidal snails and Crustaceans makes the usual nano risks less of an issue. However, if you want to do anything other than that...do go as big as you can fit.

 

[Betta_Shark5678]

Thank you!
 
I'm sorry I wasn't clear about the tank systems we used.  I am not planning on using that system I was just trying to go into more detail to hopefully help anybody who answered, they were only setup for around 11 days.  
 
I was not planning on adding Starfish, Anemones, and Urchins, but that's only because I haven't found them before.  
 
I have looked into growing plankton a little bit.  I actually visited a clam farm while at camp and they had "green houses" full of jar where they were raising plankton.  That got me thinking about it.  I'm growing to be hatching brine shrimp for my baby platys, so why not try plankton, too!
 
Would having barnacles, mussels, and periwinkles with green crabs be okay?  We had them together, and the crabs didn't eat anything other than the barnacles, though two of the largest in my tank disappeared, the other large crab always seemed stressed, and the fourth crab was the size of a dog whelk! Personally, I'd love a crab tank, they were my favorite creature in the tanks.  Somebody's shrimp got eaten, and I got to watch (and as horrible as it may sound to some it was very interesting).  Also several crabs were found in the girl's bathroom, so I would definitely find a heavy lid for the tank!
 
Biotopes really interest me, it makes it seem much less "cluttered" if you will.  Having fish, and plants from the same place just looks more natural to me.  The thought of a Biotope closer to where I live is very exciting!
 
Getting a chiller shouldn't be a problem, I have a Marine Aquarium store near me that I've been dying to check out, though I've had no reason to until now 

 They will most likely have all the equipment I'll need, but I'll have to go there to find out.  In that case, I'll try out a simple Marine tank first to see how I do with it, then maybe try tidal later on.
 
Thank goodness about the seawater, I was dreading having to collect it in a safe location that not as many people go to and bringing it home! I will look into culturing plankton.
 
I'll probably go with a 30 gallon if I can, 20 will be next best.  I see 20 long tanks a lot on craigslist for cheap, so I may go for one of those if I can't get a 30 for a good price.  Mostly snails, and crustaceans, but I would like to add some barnacles and mussels.  If the tank conditions get out of hand I may be able to release the bivalves at least, though depending on what's going on I won't want to, in case I infect the area I got them from!
 
Thanks again for your answers, you've given me a lot to think about, and you still didn't scare me out of keeping Marine tanks! I was afraid to try them until this camp.

 

[ncguppy830]

i dont have any advice but this sounds cool

 

[Donya]

Would having barnacles, mussels, and periwinkles with green crabs be okay?

 
All green crab food eventually I'm afraid. As the crab grows or becomes bolder, barnacles will get crushed/cracked, mussels are pried open after tearing away at the filaments, and snails will have the operculum popped off like a lid. True crabs are often fairly timid for a while after capture before they start destroying their surroundings so that's probably why you didn't see lots of animals being shredded. That's one of the reasons I suggested Pagurus longicarpus hermits, since really destructive behaviors like that only occur if the crabs aren't kept well-fed or if they aren't provided suitable larger shells to move into. Hermits in general are a more managable in a community tank setting than the more active true crabs like Portunids (the group to which green crabs belong) and Grapsids (another group that has an invasive member here).
 
 
 
 

If the tank conditions get out of hand I may be able to release the bivalves at least, though depending on what's going on I won't want to, in case I infect the area I got them from!

 
Once you've collected something and exposed it to anything not from its original habitat you can't return it without risking introducing something that doesn't belong, even if it's microscopic. You will need live rock before animals for a healthy setup and it is illegal to collect that from the coasts in most areas, so that exposure alone would be enough to mean they shouldn't be released.
 
 
 
 

Getting a chiller shouldn't be a problem, I have a Marine Aquarium store near me that I've been dying to check out, though I've had no reason to until now 

 They will most likely have all the equipment I'll need, but I'll have to go there to find out.  In that case, I'll try out a simple Marine tank first to see how I do with it, then maybe try tidal later on.

 
The main issue with a chiller is the cost. For those who don't have rather deep pockets, chillers can be one of the bigger sticker shock items in marine stuff aside from some of the higher-end light fixtures. Speaking of lighting, that would also be an important thing to look into if you plan on trying to cultivate any native coastal algaes. Most of the ones I've tried to keep seem to be very demanding in that department and do better in shallow tanks where it's easier to get good light penetration.
 
 
 
 

I'll probably go with a 30 gallon if I can, 20 will be next best.  I see 20 long tanks a lot on craigslist for cheap, so I may go for one of those if I can't get a 30 for a good price.  Mostly snails, and crustaceans, but I would like to add some barnacles and mussels.  

 
For invert-only setups those are good sizes. 
 
Also, if you want to have some wave action minus the tide going up and down, have a look at zoomed power sweep pumps. They work very well in smaller tanks like 20longs for simulating a variable current.

 

[Betta_Shark5678]

Thanks again Donya!
 
I have always wanted hermit crabs, so if I can get a hold of some of those I'll probably do that.  
 
Oh I didn't think of that, no releasing.  I'll learn as much as I can before hand, and hopefully it won't go badly enough for me to have even considered releasing them.
 
I suppose that would be a shock, I was expecting they'd be no more than a heater.  My 55 gallon freshwater tank is in need of a lighting upgrade, so I'd probably buy any lighting at the same time, and try not to cry when all my money is gone.
 
Then that will be perfect, I don't plan on having any fish in the tank.  A 20 long with a power head is the most common smaller tank I see on craigslist so that will be easy!