New Betta, New Problems. And Pointers, If Anyone Would Be So Kind.

[Deus Machina]

Hi there! First post.

A little background, it seems I have bad luck with pretty fish. All from a 1.5 gallon tank, a pretty little betta bought the farm in a couple days. A pearly fantail got out of the store bag, looked around, and went belly-up. And from a set of three guppies, one was floating in the morning, another's tail fell apart and he went, and the last waited until his body bleached out, his tail turned black, and he gave it up. If there are any environmental concerns I may have but I'm not aware about, I'd like to know.

Anyway, bought a 3-gallon tank for my mom for Mother's Day, stuck in another betta (Vegas. Irridescent blue-green, stoplight-red fins veined with bluegreen.), a mottled comet, and an ugly little calico fantail, feed them twice a day, and the water doesn't get changed unless I do it, and these things are healthier than can be. Her luck's better than mine.

Anyway, just got myself another tank (10 gallon--was hoping it would relieve water quality fluctuations) and another betta, not as pretty as the others. He was in the store, but the light doesn't hit him the same--now he's just red. And he's flaring and nipping at everything that throws the slightest reflection. Back wall, side walls, the surface of the water.

Is there an easy way to cut down on the reflections? Is he just upset at being moved around, and likely to calm down? Should I assume he had taken some kinda of head trauma, like I do to my floundering numbskull fantail?

Also: acceptable tankmates for bettas? I know the goldfish-types in my mom's tank just have overlapping temperatures with him, and I'm more of a tropical guy. None of my bettas have been agressive to anything that doesn't look like them (the fantail got nipped a few times), but I also don't want anything nipping at *them*.

My tanks are always salted, 1/2 tsp per gallon; should I be adding more?

I do want my fish comfortable. I really do love them--bettas specifically--and would have given up by now if I knew it was something I was doing and I thought they would actually have a better chance in the stores.

 

[dem0nz]

grrrr i rarely do sensible replys but since i am the first one here, then i suppose i should...

with your 1.5 that sounds lik ammonia poisoning
have you done a fishless cycle,if so explain what you did to cycle the tank
if you dont know what cycling is read the pinned topics in the begginers section
also that tank was waaaaaaaaay over stocked

i'm guessing the 3gal prob wasnt cycled either,if the water is changed regularly it might be ok so long as nothing else is added to the tank

the betta in the 10gal will prob calm down and get his colours back,give him a week

best betta tank mates are corys
basicly anything that isnt bright with flowing fins or hangs out in his part of the tanj he should tolerate
and dont put him with anything nippy or overly boisterous

bettas dont need salt,they are fresh water


ok i'm done,anybody else?

 

[Hawkins]

yeah stop the salt altogether.. thats probably your problem if you keep adding it

 

[Deus Machina]

I didn't have all those in at once. I did try to adhere pretty close to the 1gallon-1inch rule, overlapping just slightly because of frequent changes.

The tank wasn't cycled, but I kept an eye on the stats the best I could. They fluctuated, but never went way out of whack--water changes helped keep that in check, but the tap water here is pretty hard and high-PH. The latter was leveled a bit with -pH. It was within guppy range, though.

I also thought it was ammonia poisoning at first, but a test strip hadn't read anything dangerous. That was after the first death, though.

The 3gal has been up long enough it's settled in. I try a 1/3 water change weekly, 2/3 if I miss it.

The betta didn't lose his color--the guppies did, which are gone now. The beta's just flaring at everything. He's calmed a bit--now he only does it when the light is on.

Vegas hung with the guppies before they went and he got moved. A single nip before he got used to them. Space--for him, I don't know about this one yet--wasn't an issue, but point taken. Nothing betta-like.

Alright, now that those points are replied to...

For the salt thing: none of these fish need it. But it did help cure fin rot on the first betta, and every fish in this house is happier and more active with a bit of salt. I've heard it helps the gills absorb oxygen, and not sure if it's related, but it is an electrolyte--like Gatorade. I think it might just be from keeping some of the nasties out.

This tank hasn't been properly cycled yet, either. I've yet to have a specifically cycle-related problem with bettas, but... I'll be keeping an eye on him until the tank's matured a bit. He was destined for the 1.5 until it could, but I brainfarted and scrubbed it.

I think at least one of the previous deaths may have been caused by the colored gravel I had. I washed it well, again after the first betta died and re-prepping it, and when I scrubbed it last, and it still darkens the water just slightly.

And a side note--always dissolve salt before putting it in the tank. When I added it to the 3gal, the comet started completely freaking out, until I took a good look and ended up poking him with a pencil until he coughed up his prize; he had picked up a salt rock and was munching on it.

 

[Deus Machina]

yeah stop the salt altogether.. thats probably your problem if you keep adding it

I'll drop it for the next time, then. Hasn't bothered my current fish, but I'll give it a shot.

And to clarify, I don't keep adding it, proportionately. I top off the water that's evaporated from the tank with unsalted before doing the change, so it stays at a constant 1/2tsp per gallon.

 

[bronzecat]

Hi
Firstly, aquarium salt is ok to be used with bettas. In fact it can reduce the likelyhood of the fish getting fungal infections.

Bettas & goldfish? let me think, is that a good idea?........No! It is not! Bettas prefer the temp to be at the higher end of the scale and, well, goldfish are cold water. By keeping them together you are not looking after the needs of the fish correctly. Plus, goldfish need a lot, and i mean alot more space than 3 gallons!! You have to take responsibility for the fish. They are probably swimming in pure ammonia by now. And those test strips are rubbish. Get a decent liquid test kit and check the water. There is no safe limit of Ammonia or Nitrite. Even small amounts are very harmful to aquatic life, so both should be zero.

My advice would be re-home the cold water fish and give the 3 gallons to the betta. If the tank is not filtered you need to be doing at least 50% water change each week, and thats just with the betta in it. BTW are the tanks heated?

 

[dem0nz]

oh yeah,welcome to the forum!!!

 

[Deus Machina]

Thanks for the welcome.

They're small fish, but I do agree that the tank is a little overstocked. So I make a point of the water changes. I'll see if my mom will let me move the betta into the 1.5 and into her room. I'd prefer larger, but she refuses to let me set up anything more in the living room yet. There really isn't enough space. So they get large changes often. I had been hoping to move her to larger and take the 3gal into my room as a dedicated betta tank, but no such luck. So I have a 10gal started.

I'd move the goldfish into the new 10-gallon, but the temperature has levelled off and between Florida apartments and such, it won't go under 80 degrees, even with the lights off. So dedicated to tropical.

All the tanks are filtered, and I have been checking on the ammonia levels. It's a bit of work, but I've been managing to keep them at nil. If I move away for college, I'll be buying her a larger tank with a biowheel so I don't have to come do everything constantly. At least she does keep a close eye on them.

The 3gal is--carefully--heated. It stays at a constant 78 degrees, which I know is at the upper range of the goldfish's comfort level, but it is in there according to my checks, and this is supposedly in the middle of betta range.

Without it heated, it does get cooler but it doesn't stay there. I figure a steady temp is better for all around.

 

[bronzecat]

Hi
I wasn't having a pop at you, but keeping fish in conditions which affect their health/wellbeing needs to be addressed

Fantails, if housed in a large tank or pond can attain 12-16 inches. By keeping it in a 3 gallon, and i'm presuming U.S gallons, it will be stunted in growth and have a shorter lifespan as a result. Goldfish are also big on bioload, so unless your filter is turning over a huge amount of water per hour, i wouldn't mind betting the ammonia levels will start to rise within 6 hours of a big water change. And bear in mind there are 2 other fish in with it. They, fantail & comet, will be suffering with the heat and tank size, and the betta will be suffering from fluctuations in water stats. I know bettas are fairly hardy, but their fins will start to suffer if ammonia is allowed to creep up.

We have some juvenile bettas who are housed, temporarily, in UK gallon jars and the ammonia from 1 small betta will start to show after about 12 hours. And they are specifically fed a certain amount of pellets, with any uneaten removed.

With regards to feeding, goldfish require a completely different food than the betta, and vice-versa.

I dont mean to sound boring and moany, but i would much rather you were able to fully enjoy your fish for as long as possible

78 degrees isn't just at the upper temp range for a goldfish, its quite a bit above. Generally 65-72 is deemed right.

 

[Deus Machina]

I figured you were just a bit zealous about it. Considering the locale, perfectly understandable. US gallons, too, yes.

And my checks were through the internet and a the cards at a couple chain stores. It wouldn't surprise me if they're wrong, and I'll be re-checking the levels, especially since i just replaced the filter.

The filter I had in it had a good bacteria buildup, and the filter is advertised as 'up to 8 gallons' or somesuch--either way, i had to turn it to the lowest setting to keep it from moving the betta around. It's certainly moving plenty, but another check never hurts.

As it is, my thoughts were that they're active, healthy, have enough room (just) to move around, and none of them show any signs of dicomfort. Considering I'm pretty much forbidden to put anything bigger in the living room, the temperature stays at 78 degrees or so (heated--unheated, it fluctuates a few) so it won't get much cooler, and my current living basically mean I'm not around the living room much or in charge of anything not in my personal room, I'm kind of working on damage prevention.

I am trying to convince her to let me find room for at least a 6 or 8 gallon tank, so the fish will be more comfortable in the future, at which point I could give the betta the 3-gallon of his own and set him at the corner of the kitchen divider or something, but he has gotten kind of attached to the fantail.

As for my personal 10-gallon, I have my own betta in it alone for now, and I started a cycle (I wish I hadn't brainfarted, and he could have had a cycled 1.5gal briefly) by putting the old filter (minus the carbon) from the 3-gal tank behind the current filter, and adding a dose of Petco bacteria from a bottle. I don't expect much from it, but hey.

Also still have a flaring problem, but now it's limited to just his reflection. I'm debating taking the backing away and tucking a cold cathode behind the tank to cut down on the glare.

EDIT: The betta and goldfish get fed separately. They eat a little bit of each other's food, but the goldfish get flakes in one corner, and the betta gets pellets or betta flakes that include dried shrimp in the other.

 

[ibbledibble]

seriously mate, get rid of the goldfish, by keeping them there you are mistreating both them and the betta. if you don't have room/aren't allowed to get a bigger tank for them yourself, then take them to a fish shop, or give them to a friend who has a pond or a big enough tank for them.

goldfish

To keep a goldfish healthy, remember to provide them with plenty of clean, cool water.
Your goldifsh's temperature should never rise above 73° Fahrenheit, and ideally should remain between 65° and 68,° so you will need a thermometer. Keeping a goldfish above 72° for long periods of time will result in Oxygen deprivation, which can cause nerve damage, heart damage, and can seriously hamper the immune system, making them more susceptible to many diseases, from easily treatable Ick to nearly untreatable swim bladder infections.
Keep your goldfish in a tank of at least 10 gallons, and make sure that a minimum of 8 gallons of your tank space is dedicated to each goldfish (a 10 gallon tank is really only suitable for one goldfish). This will provide sufficient space for your goldfish, so he can remain healthy, and this will allow the tank to help you keep healthy fish. Perform your weekly 10-15% water changes, so that your goldfish always has clean water and the waste that is not processed by the filter is removed. Your goldfish will need a filter to keep the water from becoming toxic, and you will need to keep the filter in good condition. When selecting a filter, if you have fancy goldfish, make sure that the filter will not produce excessive current in your tank, and this will make it difficult for the fancy goldfish to swim.

http/www.mypets.net.au/flex/goldfish/528/1

a healthy and happy average-sized adult goldfish requires at least 20 US gallons of water in order to live a full life. In fact, for single tailed varieties, such as commons or comets, it may even become necessary to have 55 gallons (for adult fish).

http/www.goldfishinfo.com/setup1.htm

Tank Size is an important step to becoming a fish owner. In a small tank, water conditions can occur rapidly, while too large a tank can be a burden for a beginner. I recommend at least investing in a 10 gallon. Choose a tank that has more water surface and less depth. ( Rectangular ones are better suited for Goldfish.) Goldfish tend to require more space than other varieties of fish. A GOOD RULE TO FOLLOW:

1 FISH PER 10-20 GALLONS OF WATER

http/www.flippersandfins.net/goldfishfaq.htm#bowl

Goldfish need at least 10 gallons of water each, and the larger goldfish require as much as 30 gallons per goldfish in order to remain healthy and thrive. They are an active fish requiring space to maneuver and swim in. Goldfish also require filtration and aeration of the water. These provide movement of the water’s surface, allowing for oxygen exchange, so that the water becomes better filled with oxygen. Goldfish need a lot of dissolved oxygen in the water. Typically, a goldfish tank’s filter system should turnover the tank’s water a minimum of 10 times per hour…

http/www.wetpetz.com/goldfish.htm

When you begin your aquarium, you need to keep in mind that it is a home for your fish. Goldfish require more room than other varieties of fish. As a general guide: 1 fish per 50 litres of water.