New Aquarium. New Fishies

[jacx14]

Hi guys,

My 130L freshwater aquarium now contains:

4 Yellow Sunset Platies
2 Red Wag Platies
3 Corydora Sterbai
3 German Blue Ram
4 Congo Tetra
2 Kribensis
2 Angelfish

Would you say this is about all I should have in the tank, or would I be able to get other species? I really do need algae eaters see.

Also, is there possible trouble with regards to my current species or should I be ok? I was told that they are all community fishes.

Thanks.

 

[Byron]

You do have some issues here.  First, I would not combine three cichlids (kribensis, ram and angelfish) in this small (to the fish) a tank.  Given the tank size (130 litres/35 gallons) I would probably retain the rams as they are smaller and less likely to cause trouble down the road.  The angelfish might be real trouble, if one or both are male; if the latter, one is bound to be dominant and the other will be bullied perhaps to death.
 
Some of the others need more as they are shoaling fish.  Congo Tetra would be best with a couple more, and I suggest this even though I do not know the tank dimensions; this is quite an active swimming fish, and the males need space to run their "relays" as someone put it.  Sterbai corys should have five minimum (this applies to any species of cory), but a few more won't hurt.  Both of these fish are highly social and have an inherent need for more of their own to prevent stress and health issues from that.
 
The platies...if there are male and female present, you will have a multitude of fry before long.  All male is best unless you want to deliberately raise fry.
 
Algae eaters...these rarely eat troublesome algae so if this is the only reason, please don't.  Adding more fish to solve a problem seldom works, and only adds more to the already heavy bioload.  Knowing the type of algae, and if this is a tank with live plants, will help us to provide more on this issue.
 
Byron.

 

[jacx14]

Hi Byron,
 
Thanks very much for your reply. I will have to consider letting one or more types of the cichlids go later on once they are older. At the moment with them being small and juvenile they don't seem to be causing problems so much, but I'm aware that its when the Angelfish reach maturity that they become dominant. I am not sure whether the Angelfish are male or female yet either.
 
As for the algae, I gave the gravel a good hoover the other day in order to get rid of faeces and debris, but there's brown particles everywhere now! It has settled like dust on everything but all the fish in the tank seem to be crazy for it pecking at everything it's settled on. I was thinking it was brown algae?
 
Josh

 

[the_lock_man]

JUst to say that we normally recommend a minimum of 6 for any shoaling species, which includes the corydoras. Other than that, I concur with everything Byron says.
 
The angelfish are too large for the tank anyway, even without other cichlids in there.
 
Assuming you have a male and a female kribensis, they will breed quickly, and will become exceptionally territorial when they do. In particular, the other bottom dwellers (rams and cories) will be at extreme risk of being killed by the protective parents.
 
I strongly recommend rehoming the angels and kribs.

 

[Byron]

Agree.  I'll explain more momentarily.
 
Josh, the brown does not sound like algae to me, but more like detritus.  Fish will pick at surfaces as microscopic food can be present.  But you do not want this debris, so I would do some water changes with substrate vacuuming to rid the tank of it.  Perhaps you are overfeeding?
 
To the cichlids, please do not delay getting rid of them as we have suggested.  There is a real issue here, involving the development of each fish.  As they grow, which fish do most all of their lives, they not only do so externally/physically in size, but there is an internal organ development at the same time.  These two however can occur independently; in other words, the internal development may continue but the external increase in size may not keep up with it.  Part of the reason for this is the size of tank, the water condition associated with this, and other fish in the tank.  The fish's physiology is impacted as it develops, and this can cause health problems down the road, and always a premature death (meaning, the fish do not live their normal expected lifespan).
 
The tank size has a direct bearing on this.  Aside from physical limitations, there is the chemistry of the water.  All fish release pheromones and allomones, which are chemical "signals."  Pheromones are "read" by other fish of the same species, and these can trigger spawning, signal danger, food, and so forth.  Allomones are read by other species, and are usually associated with warnings.  Negative signals cause stress, and the more stress, the worse it becomes.  It is therefore important to ensure fish species are housed in suitable sized tanks every moment of their lives as they are developing, and with suitable tankmates.
 
All of this is usually unseen by the aquarist, because it is an internal issue.  It is only when the stress reaches very severe levels that fish begin reacting by increased aggression or withdrawal.  By that point it is frankly too late, as the fish have been permanently scarred, so to speak.
 
Discerning male/female in angelfish is extremely difficult externally, until the fish have matured.  The size of the papilla is the most reliable method, but this may only be noticeable prior to spawning.  The bahaviour of the two fish towards each other may be an indication.  But again, this is not good to just leave them.  Even if you remove them later, the fish may never be the same, and this is something we should avoid.
 
Byron.

 

[sawickib]

On top of everything already stated, the congo tetras need 6+ and need a tank thats 4ft long similar to danios because of their activity level.

 

[jacx14]

Thanks for all your advice.
 
My tank is 48 inches long x 12 inches wide x 15 inches deep, so there is length for them to swim? I am going to get 3 more corydoras and 2 more congo tetra as they are both scholing fish and this has been recommended to me by a few people now. I am still trying to figure out what I am going to do about re-homing the Angelfish as I don't want them causing problems for others, or getting themselves stressed as mentioned before. I currently only have one tank which is an issue.
 
I definately want to keep the GBR's, but with regards to the two female Kribensis... would you recommend re-homing these as well? Also, what would you suggest as suitable community replacements for the above fish?
 
With regards to the detritus.. I am going to do a 25% water change tomorrow (I just need to purchase more conditioner) and do another gravel hoover. It was this gravel hoover which caused it all to get mixed up in the first place though

... maybe I'm doing it wrong

 

[LilyRose Tank]

Hi. Where did you buy the fish from in the first place? Generally a local fish/pet store will take them back off you for a refund, or at least a credit note for the cost of said fish. I see you live in the Uk, if you bought the fish from Maidenhead aquatics, generally they will take them back especially if you have only had them a few days and providing the fish are not showing signs of illness that was not there when they were sold to you. Platys are a lovely fish, but Rams Angels and Krib are territorial and as others have suggested, maybe rehome two of these species,( the angels and Krib as you suggested) I find my platys and rams chase each other a lot, you may want to rethink the platys as they are notorious breeders and every female will drop a ton of fry every 4 weeks. Even if they have only mated once, for six months or so. Also as others have said increase to 6 for the Cory's and the tetra. If you really want a few algae eaters, I can recommend a Bristlenose plecostomas, an Otocilinius ( sorry if I spelt that wrong) and an assasin snail or two especially if you have a pest snail problem ( don't know if you do, just a suggestion) otherwise you have a lovely selection....please look at the livebearers section and sex your platys ..if the second lower fin looks like a gun, it's a male, if it's a triangle it's a female , good luck

 

[Byron]

With the 4-foot length you are fine for Congo Tetra.  I would add 3 more for a group of 7.  Are you familiar with how to tell male from female with this species?  The male is by far more impressive than the rather drab female and I have found that you can have more males to females without creating issues (not all shoaling fish are like this) so aim for 4 males and 3 females; right now in my 4-foot 90g I have 5 male/4 female.  The males once settled love to do relay races end to end, sometimes just two of them, sometimes a third joins in.  This has nothing to do with the females or spawning (that is quite different), it is just the "boys" challenging and displaying.
 
With all this activity, the angelfish will not be settled regardless of other issues.  The activity level of a species is a critical consideration in community tanks.  When I have had to re-home fish for whatever reason, I turn first to local aquarists.  There is a Classified section under "General" on the first page of this forum, and you may find local aquarists.  Second would be stores; I don't know how long you've had these fish, but some stores will accept them if they understand the issue, and they should prefer to keep your business.  I personally would re-home the kribs too, as I think the increase to provide a better condition for the other fish will not leave you much space for fish that may possibly turn into trouble.
 
As for additional species, let's recap.  Congo Tetra (7 or 9), Corydoras sterbai (6), platy (6) and two blue rams.  This is a 4-foot tank so good length, and the volume is 31 UK gallons (34 US gallons) so we don't want to push the envelope much.  I would let this establish before considering more fish, but one option is more substrate fish.  Whiptail catfish (the smaller Rineloricaria parva, not the larger "Royal" species) appeal to some, and you could have 1 to 3.
 
On the cleaning, what is your substrate?  And do you have live plants?
 
Edit:  Jayne posted as I was typing, and I see she has raised some valuable points.  The platy issue in particular; if females are present, they have probably been impregnated before you got them, and they can deliver several batches of fry.  If male and female are present, which ever variety as they cross-breed, you will soon have hundreds of fry to deal with.
 
Byron.

 

[jacx14]

Hi folks,

Platys... Well it's safe to say there's DEFINATELY a mix of male and female. And one or more of the females were pregnanat when I got them. I actually think one is very heavily pregnant.. please take a look at the attached image of her.. I will also take a photo if the substrate so you can get an idea what I have. Would you say it's ok if I just let the pregnant give birth in the main tank? Also, There's no live plants, only plastic.

 

[the_lock_man]

Don't see the image, but hey, no need. If you have a male in the same tank as females, they will be gravid pretty much the whole time.
 
Yes, it's perfectly OK to let them drop the fry in the main tank. That way, the vast majority of them will be predated upon by the other fish (including by the platies themselves). This is a good thing, as platy fry are exceptionally difficult to rehome. When I kept platies, I never even saw a fry.

 

[jacx14]

 
Notice that all the Congo Tetra look the same? Can't really tell the sex.. are they too young?
 
 

Ah thanks lock man.. I will just let nature take its course then in that case, and hope I won't be overrun with Platies!

 

[Ch4rlie]

To the cichlids, please do not delay getting rid of them as we have suggested.  There is a real issue here, involving the development of each fish.  As they grow, which fish do most all of their lives, they not only do so externally/physically in size, but there is an internal organ development at the same time.  These two however can occur independently; in other words, the internal development may continue but the external increase in size may not keep up with it.  Part of the reason for this is the size of tank, the water condition associated with this, and other fish in the tank.  The fish's physiology is impacted as it develops, and this can cause health problems down the road, and always a premature death (meaning, the fish do not live their normal expected lifespan).
 
The tank size has a direct bearing on this.  Aside from physical limitations, there is the chemistry of the water.  All fish release pheromones and allomones, which are chemical "signals."  Pheromones are "read" by other fish of the same species, and these can trigger spawning, signal danger, food, and so forth.  Allomones are read by other species, and are usually associated with warnings.  Negative signals cause stress, and the more stress, the worse it becomes.  It is therefore important to ensure fish species are housed in suitable sized tanks every moment of their lives as they are developing, and with suitable tankmates.
 
All of this is usually unseen by the aquarist, because it is an internal issue.  It is only when the stress reaches very severe levels that fish begin reacting by increased aggression or withdrawal.  By that point it is frankly too late, as the fish have been permanently scarred, so to speak.
 
Byron.

 
Excellent information, I'd like to learn more of this, is there any particular study or articles where i could find more information.
 
jacx14 - Sorry for jumping into your thread about this, but thats what this forum is all about, learning good information  

 

[jacx14]

Haha no problem, I agree that's very insightful info from Byron, I had no idea

 

[Byron]

jacx14, on the Congo Tetra sex, I cannot tell from the photos.  Could you do some larger images?  This species is commercially raised (as opposed to being wild caught) so when available in stores they are at a very juvenile stage, but it is sometimes possible to see the beginnings of the caudal filaments.  Another factor is the colour/sheen of the fish, but one pretty much has to observe them swimming in the tank to see this properly.  The males have a definite rainbow colouring which reflects the overhead light, whereas the females will not.
 
On the platy fry, I agree that many will be eaten.  But with so many females, many are almost bound to survive.  The other thing which is even more critical is that aquarium fish should not be fed other fish too much, or have such a free hand at eating.  Fish believe it or not are not a nutritional food for other fish, and there is a nutritional deficiency; I'll have to dig up my data on this, as I can't remember the specific issue, but it is one reason that "feeder fish" are not good long-term.  Second issue here is that overfeeding any fish in an aquarium is always the beginning of real health problems.  Personally, I would not leave the fry in the tank but remove them as they appear, as best as you can.  What you do with them then, up to you.  Those of us with egg-laying fish see regular and continuous spawning, but here it is almost always the eggs that are gobbled up by other fish, and of course eggs are the best nutrition there is and all fish and animal life begins by eating/absorbing egg yolk.
 
Substrate.  That is gravel, so fine.  From what you were describing earlier, I though you might have some sort of decomposing substrate such as one sometimes sees with planted tanks, but this is just plain gravel (I'm assuming there is no layer of something else underneath).  So use the siphon vacuum to push down vertically into the gravel, and leave it a few seconds, slowly raising it back up so that all or most of the detritus goes up the tube and down the drain/into the bucket.  Move over the whole substrate.  Don't overfeed (the more food entering the tank, the more waste) and be regular with a 50% partial water change every week, with a cleaning of the substrate.  You can leave some of the substrate alone once you get things balanced again, as there is a benefit to the bacterial processes both aerobic and anaerobic going on down there.  You don't want an aquarium that is "too clean," this is not at all healthy.
 
I'll reply to Ch4rlie with a separate post as it may be longer.

 
Byron.