Need Help Confirming Gender Of Bolivian Rams

[FishLover66]

Hi all. I finally got my focus fish and was hoping someone would confirm their gender for me. I did my best to pick two female Bolivian rams, since they are VERY hard to find (males are everywhere), but now I'm second guessing myself, because they are getting along so well (or perhaps that's normal for girls with no male to complicate things?). Anyway, I took some pictures of them--the best I could get considering my camera is out of commission, and I had to use my phone, plus they're very active--so it wasn't easy.

FIsh One--almost certain it's a girl--very round, less colorful

Fish Two--Think it's a girl, but am not certain. Slimmer body, slightly more colorful, but still dull compared with the males I've seen.

Fish Two

Fish One--you can see the plumpness and less coloration in this pic

Fish Two--definite difference from the picture above.

So what do you think? Two girls or a pair?

 

[Essjay]

The pics aren't good enough to see clearly - and I do fully understand the problems of taking photos, fish just won't keep still - but I'm sure I can see breeding tubes. Look at those, in a female the tube is wide and the same width all the way down. In a male, it is thinner and goes to a point. That's the best way to tell the sexes apart.
The problem with the other indicators are they can be misleading. The taller rays on the dorsal fin in a male - they could be broken so he looks female. The less rounded belly of a male could be an undernourished female. The lack of colour could be a stressed male. Breeding tubes are the best way to tell.


Just one thing, some of the pics show red around the eye - are they really red or is it just the pic? Because rams with red eyes are gbr's not bolivians.

 

[FishLover66]

Thanks essjay. Both of the rams have large breeding tubs, not tapering or pointing back toward the tail, so that's why I was thinking they were both girls when I picked them out. I had the associate at Petsmart take them out of the tank so I could inspect them more carefully. I had her put back the ones that either weren't showing a breeding tube at all or those with small pointy ones. The rounder of the two did appear to have a bit of red in the eye (or maybe that was another one I looked at?), and I know that's a charecteristic of the GBRs, but I couldn't find the red after I purchased them and they were in my tank. ? Is it possible to have a hybred? Honestly, I've never seen such a round Bolivian--she almost looks like a balloon variety. But she also doesn't look like a GBR, because of the coloring and tail (red strips on top and bottom rays).

Do females get along better than two males would? My original plan was to purchase two females and pick up a high quality male at my favorite LFS and hopefully he would pick one of the females to pair up with. Then I'd return the other female. But now, I'm not sure I want to complicate things, since they are getting along so well.

 

[Essjay]

I can only tell you about my experience. I bought the two most different bolivian rams in the shop, and they both turned out to be males. These two got along fine, just the very occassional bit of nipping, but nothing to do any damage. Until I found a shop with females in, like you I found some with the breeding tubes visible. Once the females were in the same tank, the males attacked each other so I had to move one into the newly vacated quarantine tank. Presumably they now had something to fight over - females! The remaining male spent a few days first with one female at one side of the tank, then a few hours with the other at the other side. Then he paired up with one and they both attacked the second female, so I had to remove her too. The second shop took back one female and a male from from the other shop.
I know that people say you can keep a group of bolivian rams in the same tank, maybe mne was just too small for this. It's a Juwel Rio 125, which has an 80 x 35cm footprint.

Given that I had two males get along fine till I put females in the tank, I would expect your two females to be OK together.

 

[Gvilleguy]

I had four Bolivian Rams for about a year, and my best guess was that I ended up with two male and two female. I think essjay is correct about the breeding tubes being the best indicator, although my Rams also seemed to follow the "shape indicator" as well. Just to give you two examples of my own Rams, here is a male with a more streamlined shape, and almost non-existent breeding tube (you can barely make out a TINY point):

And here is a female with a noticeable tube and rounder shape:

These characteristics were consistent for both sets of Rams. My Rams ended up being too big for the tank, and I had to rehome two of them. But while they were there, they seemed to pair off territory, with one male/female pair chasing off the other pair, regardless of sex. So I can't really say that my females got along, but the tank was probably just overcrowded.

 

[FishLover66]

Thanks essjay and Gvilleguy. Right now, they are in a 10 gallon quarentine tank and swimming around together nicely. I'm almost positive that they are two girls--if they both had the same plumpness, I'd be positive. I guess I was expecting them to just take separate sides of the tank and then I could add a male and hoped for a pair. But now, I'm afraid to add a male, since they will no longer get along and the tank may be too small for three of them to coexist, even temporarily.

The rounder of the two definitely looks a lot like your female above. The other one, while slimmer, definitely doesn't have the male coloring or extended rays and has a much larger breeding tube.

I really would still like to have a male and female, since it would be fun to see them interact and possibly raise a family. Just not sure how to go about that now.

 

[Essjay]

I wouldn't worry too much about the plumpness issue. It is quite common for fish to be undernourished when you first get them.
Depending on how big your tank is (the tank they're going in not the quarantine tank) I would be inclined to wait a few weeks, see if the thinner one fattens up and if either start to look like males. If the both stay looking like females, if the tank is big enough I would then get a male if it was my tank and see if he pairs up with one of them. If you decide to do this, keep a close eye on them and have the QT on standby just in case a pair form and they attack the second female like mine did.

 

[FishLover66]

Sounds like a plan. THanks!

 

[FishLover66]

Okaaay. I noticed this morning just before I fed them that they were really starting to bicker, so I guess that makes my decision easier. I'd really be surprised if I have anything other than two girls. They are both just so dull--colorwise--and have large breeding tubes. I was beginning to think it would be better not complicating things and just keep the two I have, but now that they are obviously more comfortable, they are definitely trying to get a pecking order established. If they are going to bicker anyway, might as well try to pair one of them.

I'm planning on getting a male this weekend and see how things go.

 

[FishLover66]

UPDATE:

Ok, I'm beginning to think I should have been happy with what I had. I picked up a male at my fave LFS on Monday morning. At first, the girls seemed oblivious, but soon discovered him and were none too happy. They both picked on him, but one in particular (obviously the alpha gal). He cowered in the corner behind a plant and the driftwood and I was thinking, great, I have a wimp on my hands. Then the two girls started bickering and every so often one or the other would chase the male. However, this morning, I noticed that the male was being a BRUTE! He's relentlessly chasing the girls around and they are now hiding in the plants or swimming away for dear life, although he doesn't seem to be picking on the alpha female as much as the other one (she does fight back more than the other one). This is only a 10 gallon quarentine tank mind you, so there's not a lot of places to hide. Of course, I do realize that they are cichlids and not human, but I guess I didn't realize that the guy would be THIS brutal. There doesn't seem to be any romance on the horizon..... unless this is normal courting behavior? ::::certainly wouldn't work for me:::: lol

How long should I let this go on?! I'm really concerned that one of them is going to get hurt or even killed.

 

[Gvilleguy]

I don't think you can say for sure what their behavior will be until they are in the bigger tank - 27 gallons, righ? I think they will settle and establish territory in that size.

In the meantime - you could attempt some sort of barrier or makeshift divider in the Q tank. Even if you were to just stack up some rocks or ornaments or plastic plants to create a barrier down the middle.

 

[FishLover66]

Ok, I'll try that. Worse case, I'll take my chances and throw them in the 27 gal. They all look pretty healthy to me, and this weekend will be two weeks for the girls. I was just hoping that they'd pair up before I placed them in the display tank.

 

[FishLover66]

Another update:

While none of them seem to be getting along, they haven't done any damage to each other and settled into territores in the 10 gallon quarentine tank. Since I don't have a pair yet and am not sure I ever will, I placed all three in my 27 gallon cube today. They seem to be adjusting well and are in the midst of settling on territories.

I'm pretty sure I have two girls and a boy. I got the boy a couple weeks ago at my favorite LFS and the owner is very reputable.... and only carries boys. The two others have much wider breeding tubes, but one is still much rounder looking than the other.

I took pictures while they were in the bag adjusting them to the other tank, but it's still my phone camera and now I'm not sure I got all three.

Here they are:

Male

Suspected Female

Suspected Female (I actually think this is the same one as above, since it doesn't have the round shape--messed up with pics, apparently)

The three omigos (don't expect anyone to be able to tell their sexes from this pic)

 

[Gvilleguy]

I bet they will be a lot happier in the big tank. I hope that they will settle well for you!

 

[FishLover66]

Yeah, it didn't take them long to color up once they were released from the bag. They are hovering in the back behind some driftwood and my large Amazon sword right now, but hopefully they will explore and settle into their own territories soon.

The neons look a bit freaked out and are schooling pretty tightly right now, but I'm sure they will start their internal bickering and game of tag soon enough. The cories didn't seem phased at all, but the ottos, who I typically don't ever see, are swimming around the back, so they may be a bit intimidated by the bigger rams. And of course the hatchets are doing what they always do, hovering at the top left corner being their boring selves.

It will be interesting to see how they interact and if I end up with a pair now that they are in a more 'natural' environment.

No more additions for a while, if at all. Looking forward to just enjoying them.