My endlers were fine one day and now one is dead, the other has a bent body, can't swim (lying at the bottom of the tank) and is gasping

lavathebetta

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they were fine yesterday morning when i fed them, and i came downstairs today and found one dead and one barely able to swim. his body is curved, he can't swim and just scoots around the bottom of the tank and he is gasping. i've been treating the tank with paraguard for 2 of the other fish in there, these endlers had been through paraguard courses and were totally fine. the tank is 10 gallons planted with the aquaclear 30 on it. i had one fish die that was previously in the main tank but was moved to a hospital tank for a bacterial infection (that fish passed in the hospital tank). they are fed new life spectrum pellets. the dead one has a little bit of a white "bubble" on the top of his head, but im not sure if that is just him decomposing. tankmates are 2 corydoras (will be getting more, one just recently passed)

i'm testing my water rn and will edit and update the post, just wanted to post this so that if anyone knows what is is then they could let me know, idk if the one who is alive is going to make it, but just so i have the knowledge in the future.

edit: .5 ammonia (adding in some prime to deal with this, likely caused by the dead one decomposing), 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate (which is weird, but my cycle may have had a little crash due to me putting some antibiotics in this tank recently, explained in the comments but one of my fish had a bacterial infection)
 
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Koglin

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Hmm.. could be intestinal issue - if the spine wasn't curved before now I don't think it would be from inbreeding.. but it could be (sadly, guppy inbreeding is common in the hobby). Move into a QT if ya can in case it is a worm or infection of some sort.

Definitely let us know your water parameters, including temperature. Include gh and kh if ya can.

Some questions to help the forum understand better:

Is the endlers belly sunken in or bloated by any chance, compared to the others? Are there any bubbles visible on/in him (ask because the one that passed had a bubble on his head).

How often / how much and what all do you feed them with?

How many endlers do you have with the 2 Cory's? Do you know what kind of corys? Are there any other fish? Also, were any of your fish added recently?

If you have live plants, were any of them added recently?

And, what kinds of conditioners and fertilizers are you using along with the med?

Always stressful when ya wake up to fish problems! Sorry for all the questions, hopefully the info. will help narrow down what could be going on. I'm concerned not just for the endlers, but since you had a cory pass away recently too - it could be a bigger underlying problem to fix.

*Edit - I'm sorry about your fishys too =[
 
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lavathebetta

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Hmm.. could be intestinal issue - if the spine wasn't curved before now I don't think it would be from inbreeding.. but it could be (sadly, guppy inbreeding is common in the hobby). Move into a QT if ya can in case it is a worm or infection of some sort.

Definitely let us know your water parameters, including temperature. Include gh and kh if ya can.

Some questions to help the forum understand better:

Is the endlers belly sunken in or bloated by any chance, compared to the others? Are there any bubbles visible on/in him (ask because the one that passed had a bubble in his head).

How often / how much and what all do you feed them with?

How many endlers do you have with the 2 Cory's? Do you know what kind of corys? Are there any other fish? Also, were any of your fish added recently?

If you have live plants, were any of them added recently?

And, what kinds of conditioners and fertilizers are you using along with the med?

Always stressful when ya wake up to fish problems! Sorry for all the questions, hopefully the info. will help narrow down what could be going on. I'm concerned not just for the endlers, but since you had a cory pass away recently too - it could be a bigger underlying problem to fix.

*Edit - I'm sorry about your fishys too =[

thanks so much for your help! btw the cory def died of a bacterial infection as it was eating into her face and I saw it spread throughout her body and to other places, one of the other corys had it too but is okay now). i'll answer your questions now, and i also have a question regarding quarantine tanks: i only have one that the fish who just died was in, how should i go about cleaning it out? how should i clean the airstone that was in it? right now the endler is in a breeder box in the main tank, and is still alive.

to answer your questions:

Is the endlers belly sunken in or bloated by any chance, compared to the others? Are there any bubbles visible on/in him (ask because the one that passed had a bubble in his head).
The endler has no bubbles on him. He looks skinner than normal, he def is not bloated.

How often / how much and what all do you feed them with?
I feed the corydoras API bottom feeder pellets (not the best, will be upgrading food). Also New Life Spectrum tropical fish pellets. They are all fed once a day and fasted once a week: 1 bottom feeder pellet and like 4-5 of the new life spectrum pellets (they sink kinda fast for me so the endlers don't eat that much of them as the corydoras get to it, the endlers get some nibbles in so probably 1-2 pellets each). although their appetites were not as good recently, but i figured that was because i had dosed the tank with antibiotics (furan-2) that made them a bit lethargic. i stopped, put the fish that needed it in a hospital tank and did water changes/put the carbon filter in to deal with this. they perked up and were getting their appetites back. they would take nibbles out of food and chase sinking pellets but quickly loose interest. then this happened. I've had the endlers since early september and this is the first sign of illness.

How many endlers do you have with the 2 Cory's? Do you know what kind of corys? Are there any other fish? Also, were any of your fish added recently?
Only 2 endlers, I had 3 but one literally vanished and I plan on getting more, just want to sort these problems out first. I have bronze corydoras. Besides the endlers and corydoras, no other fish.

If you have live plants, were any of them added recently?
None were added recently, the most recent was added in early September.

And, what kinds of conditioners and fertilizers are you using along with the med?
I use seachem flourish root tabs and liquid ferts

btw the meds i have on hand right now are paraguad, pimafix (which i now now isnt too good), and furan-2. i can't test for gh/kh as i only have the api master test kit, but i just updated the post w water parameters.
 

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Is there any chance the tank got any chemical in it? Though I'd expect the cories to have been affected first if this were the case...
 
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lavathebetta

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Is there any chance the tank got any chemical in it? Though I'd expect the cories to have been affected first if this were the case...

no way, there's nothing nearby to clean with chemicals (tank is on a stand between 2 windows that have nothing on them), and i know for a fact no one has cleaned near it. the corys are all fine and eating, acting normal.

do you have any advice on how to clean a hospital tank? i don't want any disease to transfer from the passed sick cory to the endler. thanks!
 

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Use hot water to Scrub it all out, then let it fully dry.

No hands with hand sanitizer went into the tank?
 

Koglin

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thanks so much for your help! btw the cory def died of a bacterial infection as it was eating into her face and I saw it spread throughout her body and to other places, one of the other corys had it too but is okay now). i'll answer your questions now, and i also have a question regarding quarantine tanks: i only have one that the fish who just died was in, how should i go about cleaning it out? how should i clean the airstone that was in it? right now the endler is in a breeder box in the main tank, and is still alive.

to answer your questions:

Is the endlers belly sunken in or bloated by any chance, compared to the others? Are there any bubbles visible on/in him (ask because the one that passed had a bubble in his head).
The endler has no bubbles on him. He looks skinner than normal, he def is not bloated.

How often / how much and what all do you feed them with?
I feed the corydoras API bottom feeder pellets (not the best, will be upgrading food). Also New Life Spectrum tropical fish pellets. They are all fed once a day and fasted once a week: 1 bottom feeder pellet and like 4-5 of the new life spectrum pellets (they sink kinda fast for me so the endlers don't eat that much of them as the corydoras get to it, the endlers get some nibbles in so probably 1-2 pellets each). although their appetites were not as good recently, but i figured that was because i had dosed the tank with antibiotics (furan-2) that made them a bit lethargic. i stopped, put the fish that needed it in a hospital tank and did water changes/put the carbon filter in to deal with this. they perked up and were getting their appetites back. they would take nibbles out of food and chase sinking pellets but quickly loose interest. then this happened. I've had the endlers since early september and this is the first sign of illness.

How many endlers do you have with the 2 Cory's? Do you know what kind of corys? Are there any other fish? Also, were any of your fish added recently?
Only 2 endlers, I had 3 but one literally vanished and I plan on getting more, just want to sort these problems out first. I have bronze corydoras. Besides the endlers and corydoras, no other fish.

If you have live plants, were any of them added recently?
None were added recently, the most recent was added in early September.

And, what kinds of conditioners and fertilizers are you using along with the med?
I use seachem flourish root tabs and liquid ferts

btw the meds i have on hand right now are paraguad, pimafix (which i now now isnt too good), and furan-2. i can't test for gh/kh as i only have the api master test kit, but i just updated the post w water parameters.

Hmm.. in addition to the bent spine, are there any other visible symptoms (such as open wounds, folded fins, protruding eyes, paleness, protruding scales)? Also, were there any other noticeable symptoms on the endler that passed? How about the cory?

There's a few things I've read about that could cause a curved spine.. usually inbreeding/genetic issues, fishy scoliosis, or mycobacteriosis (fish tuberculosis).

Any other symptoms might help narrow it down more though. Might be a good idea to get others' advice too, as I have read a lot more than I've dealt with >.>
 
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Koglin

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Hmm.. in addition to the bent spine, are there any other visible symptoms (such as open wounds, folded fins, protruding eyes, paleness, protruding scales)? Also, were there any other noticeable symptoms on the endler that passed? How about the cory?

There's a few things I've read about that could cause a curved spine.. usually inbreeding/genetic issues, fishy scoliosis, or mycobacteriosis (fish tuberculosis).

Any other symptoms might help narrow it down more though. Might be a good idea to get others' advice too, as I have read a lot more than I've dealt with >.>

In addition to that, think the TB (mycobacteriosis) and scoliosis can actually be introduced into a tank or develop naturally through ongoing tank conditions.

I would think those would take longer though. How old is your tank and the fish again?
 
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lavathebetta

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In addition to that, think the TB (mycobacteriosis) and scoliosis can actually be introduced into a tank or develop naturally through ongoing tank conditions.

I would think those would take longer though. How old is your tank and the fish again?

the tank was started in late july so like 3.5 months. nothing new has gone into the tank since early September (this is when some new plants + the endlers went into the tank). there are no visible lesions or anything on the dead endler, the one that is alive doesn't have anything on it at all. it's possible that the scales are protruding but it is not dramatic enough for me to confirm or deny.

besides the weird bubble on the dead endler, nothing. for the dead cory, she had a literal hole in her head from the bacterial infection (missing flesh), that i think went internal and spread outwards as i spotted white lesions/spots on her body as it progressed. she was treated with furan 2 but nothing worked sadly. the endlers def don't have this.

the endlers never had bend bodies until today, so i don't think its genetics unless that just shows up all of the sudden. this was more of an overnight development.

i appreciate all your help! thank you so much

edit: also, idk if i should move the fish or not, it'll def be a big stressor and when i moved my corydoras they lost a lot of color and got super stressed, but i don't want my other fish to get sick as one just recovered from a bacterial infection. i always get mixed advice on this so idk
 

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Can you check your local water provider site to see the GH? If too low, I know it can severely affect livebearers like endless...
 
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lavathebetta

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Can you check your local water provider site to see the GH? If too low, I know it can severely affect livebearers like endless...

that is so smart... quick googling found me several different answers. according to the state, the water is "soft to slightly hard," another source from a forum says that gh and kh are at around 2. hope this info helps. do you think that could kill them over long periods of time? like i mentioned the fish have been in the tank for around 3.5 months. thanks so much for your help!
 

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Hi OP, I'm so sorry for your losses and that this has turned out to be a bit of a nightmare! Hopefully if we put our heads together, we can figure it out.

The ammonia and the lack of nitrate in your water test results have me concerned. I think there might be a few different issues going on with your fish. Sadly a lot of livebearers like endlers are mass produced in huge fish farms abroad, and often come loaded with diseases. And as you've found, once one things starts, it often spirals as a fish gets stressed and weakened, and other diseases take over and water parameters suffer when antibiotics crash a cycle. Sometimes there is more than one issue going on at a time, such as fish carrying worms, but also having a bacterial infection, you know? Makes it harder to diagnose, and none of us are fish vets. We all have to basically wing it and do the best we can.

So lets get back to basics. Means more questions, I'm sorry! But since we can't see the tank or fish or the water, we have to bombard you with more questions to try to help! You've been great about providing a lot of detail so far, thank you! But my questions are;

How often do you water change, and how large a water change each time?
Do you also gravel vac the substrate? How often?
How do you clean the filter and how often?

Lastly, if you could take a short video of the tank and the fish, it could help immensely. Being able to see the fish and their environment, how they move and their behaviour, is so much better than a still photo. Colin has decades of experience with fish and disease, and he sees things that others miss. But he needs to be able to see what's going on.
The video upload thing on the forum doesn't work, so if you could upload to youtube then paste the link here, that would work! :)

Sorry for yet more questions and demands! You've been so good about it. I know it's a hassle, but it really is so that we'll have the information needed to try to help :)
 
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lavathebetta

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Hi OP, I'm so sorry for your losses and that this has turned out to be a bit of a nightmare! Hopefully if we put our heads together, we can figure it out.

The ammonia and the lack of nitrate in your water test results have me concerned. I think there might be a few different issues going on with your fish. Sadly a lot of livebearers like endlers are mass produced in huge fish farms abroad, and often come loaded with diseases. And as you've found, once one things starts, it often spirals as a fish gets stressed and weakened, and other diseases take over and water parameters suffer when antibiotics crash a cycle. Sometimes there is more than one issue going on at a time, such as fish carrying worms, but also having a bacterial infection, you know? Makes it harder to diagnose, and none of us are fish vets. We all have to basically wing it and do the best we can.

So lets get back to basics. Means more questions, I'm sorry! But since we can't see the tank or fish or the water, we have to bombard you with more questions to try to help! You've been great about providing a lot of detail so far, thank you! But my questions are;

How often do you water change, and how large a water change each time?
Do you also gravel vac the substrate? How often?
How do you clean the filter and how often?

Lastly, if you could take a short video of the tank and the fish, it could help immensely. Being able to see the fish and their environment, how they move and their behaviour, is so much better than a still photo. Colin has decades of experience with fish and disease, and he sees things that others miss. But he needs to be able to see what's going on.
The video upload thing on the forum doesn't work, so if you could upload to youtube then paste the link here, that would work! :)

Sorry for yet more questions and demands! You've been so good about it. I know it's a hassle, but it really is so that we'll have the information needed to try to help :)

thank you so much for your help so far & kind words! the enders were healthy for over a month before this happened, i guess long term disease developing is possible (dont know much about it). dosed the tank with prime to detoxify ammonia and ill be doing some water changes to deal with that as well.

and no problem w the questions, ask as many as you need, i'll can do to help us all figure this out. the endler is still alive so maybe there is some hope, or at least ill be able to learn what not to do in the future.

How often do you water change, and how large a water change each time?
usually a 30% water change once a week, however due to the medication in the tank, it made some of my dwarf water lettuce rot, so i did extra ones within the last week (like 3 extra or so) to get all the decaying plant matter out of it.
Do you also gravel vac the substrate? How often?
i do not (my siphon has a thingy that blocks it, like a screen). ive also seen super mixed advice on if you should or should not in a planted tank
How do you clean the filter and how often?
whenever i do a water change (so once a week), i swirl the filter media in the old water, never chlorinated water or anything.

good idea about the photos/vids, i'll attach some tomorrow once i can use someone else's phone to do it (my phone's camera is kinda broken and poor quality won't be too helpful, i'd rather just wait as its dark as well, annoying i know haha). hope this info helps!
 

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The low GH is no good for the endlers, they need a GH of 15 DH to stay healthy.

Having them in soft water affects their immune system. While this will not kill them outright, it leaves them prone to things that may kill them fast, such as bacterial infections, fungal, etc.

I struggled with this with guppies and they'd die within days of getting them, a few showing signs of acute columnaris infections when they were originally healthy in the store.
Learned my water is only 5 DH or 89.5 ppm, which is soft.
This affected my livebearers, while it didn't kill them immediately.

Now, I keep my guppies in a 50g tote and use Seachem Equilibrium to bring my GH up to 250ppm for them. Much healthier and all my problems are better.

However, depending on your corydoras species, they may not thrive in the high GH, so you may need separate tanks should you want to keep both.

So your low GH is a contribution to the problem you are having, so its something to work on should you want to continue with the endlers afterwards. So thats one thing solved, let's work on the rest to get these guys in better health.
 
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