Miracle Grow As A Soil Substrate

[mishmash]

Ive been reading some articles on using soil as an enriched substrate and capping it with something suitable.

The one that seemed to pop out was Miracle Gro ( Miracle Gro at Robert Dyas ). However reading the product description it says it feeds plants "for up to 6 weeks". Is this the case ? Does it only last that long ? Or otherwise how long is this stuff good for ? If soil only has a short shelf life surely we are better off using a plain substrate with high CEC and dosing ourselves ? If someone could let me know the technical pros and cons that would be great.

 

[stu40]

Been thinking along the same lines myself after following your other thread.This is a bit of a ramble as i'm still thinking my way through this.

This and say John Innes #3, are both intended for garden plants.These feed through their roots.As i gardener, i typically use compost such as this to grow seedlings on before planting out into the garden, into soil that has been mulched.

6 weeks use seems to be pretty standard on most packaging and i've noticed that growth is stunted if the plants are left in the compost alone for too long.

i don't want to get into the whole 'heavy feeders' debate over certain aquatic plants, but lets say that plants will take nutrients from where ever they can get them from,so therefore over time the soil is bound to expire,

but i don't know enough aquatic plants root systems & nutrient uptake to say how long that will take.

However in the meantime, mulm will be produced by both fish & the plants themselves and work back down into your substrate (just like i would compost my garden soil) to replenish the nutrient supply.

Again, i don't know the time scale involved here.

"If soil only has a short shelf life surely we are better off using a plain substrate with high CEC and dosing ourselves ?"

I guess this approach will get you to the same point but by a different route.

Primous, i'm presuming, wants an 'organic' tank, with no additives.That's why he's chosen a peat free, organic soil.Probably cheaper in the long run, because the inital nutrient supply is in the soil, and when that's gone, it's replaced by fish waste.

If you're going to dose yourself, ferts will need to be bought (not expensive if you buy dry salts & mix yourself)

I haven't read it, but have you read Diana Walstad's book, sounds like it's essential reading if you want to follow the soil route.If you do, you can give me a synopsis

 

[mishmash]

Been thinking along the same lines myself after following your other thread.This is a bit of a ramble as i'm still thinking my way through this.
No one can ramble as much as me, LOL

This and say John Innes #3, are both intended for garden plants.These feed through their roots.As i gardener, i typically use compost such as this to grow seedlings on before planting out into the garden, into soil that has been mulched.
Most aquatic plants are often grown emersed so there is a large similarity from what I can tell.

6 weeks use seems to be pretty standard on most packaging and i've noticed that growth is stunted if the plants are left in the compost alone for too long.
Never hear any of the soil method aquarists talk about time limits though.

i don't want to get into the whole 'heavy feeders' debate over certain aquatic plants, but lets say that plants will take nutrients from where ever they can get them from,so therefore over time the soil is bound to expire,
I guess thats why some people advocate substrates with higher CEC.

but i don't know enough aquatic plants root systems & nutrient uptake to say how long that will take.

However in the meantime, mulm will be produced by both fish & the plants themselves and work back down into your substrate (just like i would compost my garden soil) to replenish the nutrient supply.
Maybe that is how the soil replenishes its nutrient base ? Anyone ?

Again, i don't know the time scale involved here.

"If soil only has a short shelf life surely we are better off using a plain substrate with high CEC and dosing ourselves ?"

I guess this approach will get you to the same point but by a different route.
Indeed, and tbh I am veering towards it at the moment ... mainly because the place I got my aquabasis+ from has agreed to go halves on a big bag of Colombo Florabase because of the perceived problem with the AB+. JBL are going to be testing the soil and depending on their results, I will be due another £15 back after the results on that are received. I am then contemplating putting something else with it, maybe Akadama, which has a high CEC and is cheaper than the AB+, to bulk it out. (Or I may just decide to be naughty and buy the second bag of florabase).


Anyone else is welcome to chip in on this...

Primous, i'm presuming, wants an 'organic' tank, with no additives.That's why he's chosen a peat free, organic soil.Probably cheaper in the long run, because the inital nutrient supply is in the soil, and when that's gone, it's replaced by fish waste.

If you're going to dose yourself, ferts will need to be bought (not expensive if you buy dry salts & mix yourself)

I haven't read it, but have you read Diana Walstad's book, sounds like it's essential reading if you want to follow the soil route.If you do, you can give me a synopsis

LMAO, I barely have time to read the forums at present let alone a book like that, although I will read it out of general interest eventually.

 

[Primous]

Ok

It doesn't have to be "miracle grow" there is nothing in the brand name. You can go to your local hardware store and pick up any organic soil just so long as it is 100% organic. Others have tried soils with additives and been hit with huge algae blooms as a result. In some cases in the US the soil was so heavily laced with additives meant for regular potting that it killed fish. So through trial and error the consensus is that we should keep it organic. Note: What the packaging says about feeding plants is irrelevant because were using it in an aquarium where different rules apply.

Diane Walstead is recognized as the founder of the dirt based substrates but others have built upon and modified her methods to great planted success. Dirt will last you between 8-10 years. And that isn't a wild guess, I'm a member of theplantedtank and before going the soil route I took advice from a several members who have been in the hobby for many years (some before I was born lol) who have been using dirt and dosing nothing/zip/zilch. Though they advised me that to begin with I could add a root tab to some (emphasis on some) of the more heavier rooting plants to allow the soil to settle in and build up/store/convert the ferts naturally.

Before entering this thread I was reading another from this section where someone was talking about ada soil/sand and had a quick look at the pricing. The first ebay link I got to was 39 bucks and I'm assuming flora base, eco complete, and all the rest of them are in that price range? Well again I must stress that all of these products are just stones and sand with some ferts baked in. These run out. They start leaching the moment they are immersed in water and on average last about a year, some far far less.

But MY rerason for getting into soil substrates was an ongoing battle with algae. Reading up on how algae and realizing that algae blooms are like an equation with one of the main and most common factors being NITRATES. And that to defeat algae all i need do is remove one of the elements the algae relies upon. Kinda like the fire triangle we learn about in early schooling.

Removing one of these elements permanently, or in my case removing nitrates permanently. Means I don't ever have to deal with most algae types. I mean, where as I used to get 5-10ppm of nitrates a week now I get 0ppm in a month (4 weeks without a water change just to test my nitrate levels) And that's aquatic music to my ears lol.

I added 6 rummynose (total of 12 now,) 7 lemon tetras a while back and another female borellii and tested before each water change and still I have 0ppm nitrates. Where as before my nitrate count would have doubled.


Recently and through an ongoing debate/conversation I've been having with a guy from tpt I have discovered that soil has enough nutirents to keep a plant red. I don't exactly know the science behind this and neither does he but I have a blood red lotus and a crypt spices that is starting to turn a redish brown. Both of these are know to turn green without the addition of iron. Both of which grew from mere stems with no roots.

No seachem iron or any type of liquid chemical required!!!

And for the record I once used jbl's planted substrate.

In the wild, there are no additives, no ada, no flora base, no seachem flourish, potassium or any other liquid poured in. Just dirt. Dirt capped with whatever (depending on which part of the globe you choose to look in) but the foundation to these tropical gorgeous streams and rivers is dirt. I'm just trying to replicate or get something close to it.

Hope at least some of the above helped

Prime.

 

[mishmash]

Hey Primous, thank you so much for such a detailed post. Is the Columbo florabase also just fert soaked baked clay then ?

 

[Primous]

Hey Primous, thank you so much for such a detailed post. Is the Columbo florabase also just fert soaked baked clay then ?

All of them are the same.

 

[Jay1983]

looks like I should have looked here first!! I think I will go the organic soil with sand cap route! much cheaper for starters!

Jay

 

[mishmash]

Hey Primous, thank you so much for such a detailed post. Is the Columbo florabase also just fert soaked baked clay then ?

All of them are the same.

How about the other part of the equation though ? although they are fert soaked, they have a high CEC and will therefore absorb nutrients from the water column making them viable in the long term too ? I am not trying to contradict the method you use, because it clearly works. That is without doubt. And i REALLY do appreciate your input. I just like to explore all aspects of my decision making....

 

[BigTom]

Soil has a high CEC too. My soil tank has now been running for a year with no fert dosing other than adding dead leaves to the water column (not even fish food), and has some very heavy root feeders, including a 4 foot tall Echinodorus, so I really wouldn't worry about soil becoming exhausted. The posher substrates are just nicer to work with, don't give such a big ammonia spike at the start and have nice particle size to encourage root growth/plant spread.

 

[ian]

Primous, i have to disagree with you on a few things in that post of yours. Although, dirt substrates do work, i would just like to highlight a few things.

Diane Walstead is recognized as the founder of the dirt based substrates but others have built upon and modified her methods to great planted success. Dirt will last you between 8-10 years. And that isn't a wild guess, I'm a member of theplantedtank and before going the soil route I took advice from a several members who have been in the hobby for many years (some before I was born lol) who have been using dirt and dosing nothing/zip/zilch. Though they advised me that to begin with I could add a root tab to some (emphasis on some) of the more heavier rooting plants to allow the soil to settle in and build up/store/convert the ferts naturally.

Although taking advice from older members can be beneficial, you have to remember that things move on in this hobby and things get researched, which sometimes the older ones leave behind. Also, this 'heavy root' feeder thing never seems to disappear. This has been proven on a few levels, Dosing the water column will just as easy keep an Sword alive and keeping it in inert substrates. Large roots are there as an evolutionary thing, as when the flood come or rains come down, these plants are normally found in places where they can get washed away, the roots act as an anchor. The plant will take from the root, but just as easy take from the water column.

But MY rerason for getting into soil substrates was an ongoing battle with algae. Reading up on how algae and realizing that algae blooms are like an equation with one of the main and most common factors being NITRATES. And that to defeat algae all i need do is remove one of the elements the algae relies upon. Kinda like the fire triangle we learn about in early schooling.

This again is such an old school thought...Over dosing nitrates or phosphates doesn't cause algae. Ammonia and light do. It may surprise you that your soil contains quite a lot of nitrate at the beginning of its life, probably one of the main reasons you plants did well. It's the most important time in a planted tank according to sources like Amamno, the first 3-6 months. As for that triangle, there's a lot more to it than that. You have to get flow right etc etc

http/aquariumalgae.blogspot.com/ <<quite a good read.

this tank is one of Tom Barr's clents tanks. Dosed with a 'cup' of N03 daily.
pic coutesy of Tom Barr

I also keep my nitrates around the 40/50ppm mark...(not being bigheaded), but you will struggle to see any algae in my tank.

Most of the planted tank keepers on here either dose EI, or use TPN+, both contain N03 and P04.

Removing one of these elements permanently, or in my case removing nitrates permanently. Means I don't ever have to deal with most algae types. I mean, where as I used to get 5-10ppm of nitrates a week now I get 0ppm in a month (4 weeks without a water change just to test my nitrate levels) And that's aquatic music to my ears lol.

One of the first rules in planted tank keeping is never trust a nitrate testing kit. I can tell you now without any N03 your plants will not survive...end of.

Recently and through an ongoing debate/conversation I've been having with a guy from tpt I have discovered that soil has enough nutirents to keep a plant red. I don't exactly know the science behind this and neither does he but I have a blood red lotus and a crypt spices that is starting to turn a redish brown. Both of these are know to turn green without the addition of iron. Both of which grew from mere stems with no roots.

not true if affraid. It's more about flow 02 and lighting to keep a plant red. I will just add that the plants you listed are actual red plantish plants. They will naturally grow red, you need not to dose Fe for these to turn red.

In the wild, there are no additives, no ada, no flora base, no seachem flourish, potassium or any other liquid poured in. Just dirt. Dirt capped with whatever (depending on which part of the globe you choose to look in) but the foundation to these tropical gorgeous streams and rivers is dirt. I'm just trying to replicate or get something close to it.

They don't have pure organic siols in the wild. They have certain TDS levels all over the world. There are alot of successful planted tank keeper/aquascapers who use most of the substrates above over soil...why??, the above are actually easier to replant in and reuse as they are backed and stay together better. Years of research done by the likes of Tom Barr has highlighted why we can now grow these plants, when 10-20 years ago people couldn't keep them alive. The reasons being, we are giving them what the need. The foundations of these tropical streams are built on a lot more than just dirt...the waters contain N03, P04, K etc etc. It's not as pure as you may think. Do you have the specific TDS's of the waters around the world so we can compare?


I'm sorry if i have picked your post apart a little, some of the advice in there is a little dated. Theres no doubt, that you have done well with your tank. You have got things right, many others don't.

 

[Mikaila31]

I agree with ianho. From my experience with soil tank (I run two of them) they run very well if you understand that an aquarium is an extremely variable system. Plants do need some form of nitrogen. Usually this is nitrate and its recommend you have 10-20ppm nitrate in a heavily planted tank. I run some filterless tanks and am not too concerned about low nitrate in these tanks as ammonia would be an additional nitrogen source. I have run algae free tanks with low nitrates to ones with 40+ppm of nitrates. From my experience keeping soil tanks one of my biggest issues I've had (and still have) was after I moved my 8 month old filterless tank from a place with 20ppm of NO3 in the tap water to a new place with 0ppm. It was fine the first month, then when down hill quite quickly. I have started dosing dry fertilizers on it as the stem plants just can't manage on my new low nutrient tap water. I run high tech tanks as well, so most all my tanks get fertilizers now. One of the major fertilizers is specifically nitrate. When I moved I had problems in all the tanks(plant die offs/algae outbreaks) and it stemmed down to just readjusting my fertilizers. I miss my old tap water with its high nitrates, my plants loved. With the new water I have to pay more attention to dosing fertilizers. Regardless if I saw a planted tank with 0 nitrates, I would add some >.>

As far as soil goes I use just top soil, clay, and sand I dig up with a shovel. I can't bother to get more technical then that with soil substrate.

 

[Primous]

@ianho Tom Barr has put out some great theories and conducted some semi scientific tests and while his work and advise isn't to be dismissed, there are many others who's approach to this hobby is founded on a completely different school of thought. And as a result, I don't really see the need to go over what you supposedly picked apart because 98% of what you disagree with I could back up.(the remaining 2% broken down as follows: 1% being soil seemingly keeping plants red because I'd have no way to prove that. The other 1% would be your jokes in the anubias tie thread.) As for the "old school thought" I'm 24, but I tend to gravitate towards theories that have been founded on fact and backed up by experience in most aspects of actual life, not just this hobby.

an aquarium is an extremely variable system. Plants do need some form of nitrogen.

I think that at times, if not often, this particular point gets overlooked. Though with that said I think I should make a small amendment to my nitrate statement. There are nitrates in my tank but they are contained in the soil. Not the water column which is exactly what I was aiming for. In another thread I said...

I lost two juvenile silvertip tetra. Pulled apart and meticulously went through my Ehiem filter. Up rooted my jungle vals and a couple other plants. Something that completely unbalanced my tank and now this week, (water change day) I have nitrates for the first time in 8 months.

Still haven't found them!

I had such dense maze of jungle val roots above the substrate that in searching for the two tetras (still haven't found them lol) I decided to pull the vals out. As expected, with all the dirt being pulled up, my nitrates jumped from 0ppm to about 5ppm in an hour.

The balance of a dirt aquarium and the fact that I wouldn't need to dose anything is one of the things that persuaded me to run with this method over others. Nutrients, including nitrates, contained and captured in the soil and not the water column is precisely what I was aiming for because the water column is where the majority of algae is birthed/takes hold. My aim was to remove everything from the water column and in the same breath pour every liquid product I owned down the drain because imbalanced fert dosing can also lead to algae. Obviously there are other methods. I could have gone with some branded substrate that's overpriced that becomes useless after 6 months - a year and would require more seachem...

I think that as we gain experience in this hobby, especially the planted aspect, we learn to spot the ecology of your aquarium by eye. We learn to understand exactly what is lacking, needs to be addressed, and or monitored simply by looking at it. Perhaps some of us (myself included) take this acquired knowledge for granted. And I say this because like most of you I follow/subscribe to other peoples aquariums. The majority of soil aquariums I follow (unless I'm being lied to) dose nothing. Everyone else (from regular gravel users to Takashi Amano's grossly overpriced substrates) has to rely on ferts. I'm approaching 10 months of a soil based substrate. My plants irrespective of where I place them grow relentlessly and I haven't dosed zip in that same space of time. Others who have dirted their tanks years I even got the idea, have aquariums that have had nothing poured in and their plants tanks remain stunning, lack nothing, and continue to grow.


You mention you have some filterless tanks. Do you have any blogs or pics of them? I've been flirting with that idea for a while but haven't had time to do the necessary research so your tanks and experience with them would be a welcome head start.

Prime.

 

[ian]

I agree, there are other theories in this hobby, I use Toms theories a lot as they are backed up by actual evidence. The 98% of stuff you can back up... It would be nice to read such stuff and what 98% are you referring to?

I don't understand the 1% being jokes about the Anubis, can you expand? It has nothing to do with this thread. As I have said dirt tanks work, that said, Ada amazonia is the best substrate on the market. It isn't that expensive when bought in Asia, it's the shipping costs that bump it up for us. I was talking to jim @ tgm about costs of Ada stuff, and as its all still made in Japan the shipments cost a bomb.

There are nitrates in my tank but they are contained in the soil. Not the water column which is exactly what I was aiming for

Nitrates just can't stay in the soil, this is impossible, they will be leaching into your water column, this is how soil substrates actually work. As nitrate is primarily an ion, it remains to be soluble in water. Where have you been researching soil substrates? I really need to see this research, this is on a serious level as well.

 

[Mikaila31]

There are nitrates in my tank but they are contained in the soil. Not the water column which is exactly what I was aiming for

Nitrates just can't stay in the soil, this is impossible, they will be leaching into your water column, this is how soil substrates actually work. As nitrate is primarily an ion, it remains to be soluble in water. Where have you been researching soil substrates? I really need to see this research, this is on a serious level as well.

Actually I agree that nitrates stay mostly in the soil thats IMO why I had such a issue with stems but not heavily rooted plants. That or the plants just consume them MUCH faster then they can leach out. While I agree that nitrate can certainly leach out of soil, a good cap substrate will keep most of it there. My first soil/ filterless tank had really really high nitrate uptake. It could go from 20ppm starting with a good sized bioload to zero in 10-14 days. I use to do water changes on it just to add nitrates to the water column. Nitrates disappeared faster in it then in my high tech tanks. It has 3wpg and a nutrient demand to match that lol, but was entirely low tech till I moved.

I have just as much success with soil as I do with high tech. I like the soil tanks, but again it comes down to what exactly you want the tank to do. Setting up a good soil/low tech tank is just as hard as setting up a good high tech tank, but without the added cost lol.

 

[Primous]

Tom Barr's research is by no means universally accepted. In fact, he's pretty much the founder and spear head of his theories and approach. As for needing to see my research I think it'd be best you read a Diane walstead's books and then expand from there. Containing nutrients and feeding the plants via the roots instead of the water column is pretty much at the heart of this approach it isn't something that's new? But again, I suggest you read up.