Mega-powerful Nitrate And Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium

[superman]

No hard feelings, let's move on and back on topic.

Santa Monica, great idea, just don't know if it should be used as the main form of filtration.

 

[johnnyjtaylor]

No hard feelings, let's move on and back on topic.

Santa Monica, great idea, just don't know if it should be used as the main form of filtration.

Lets

I still would like SantaMonica to post monthly data to see how well his idea works and whether it stands the test of time(i.e no N03,P04 in the water column,no algae in his main tank and no detrimental effects on livestock) used as the only method of filtration(no skimmer) as I feel a month is not long enough to prove a systems worth. His idea is different from other algae scrubbers and a lot simpler.

 

[SantaMonica]

I'm happy to report test results, but after they go to zero, there's not too much additional usefulness in reporting that. The nano test, for example, just hit zero P today (and that's after adding a half cube of mysis yesterday.) So unless the numbers change, we'll assume that N and P are zero, and that the fish and corals are not dieing

Superman:

I wasn't saying that the turf algae could release toxins to compete with corals, but that the toxins from the corals may or may not have some limiting effect on the turf algae. Cyanobacteria may be able to release toxins to compete with other photosynthetic organisms, though I do not have data to prove this

Allelopathics are certainly not handled by turf; I think most people use monthly carbon to deal with them, and I do/will too.

But in a most basic sense, it is much more easy to rely on a mechanical means of filtration (protein skimmer) as the heart of your filtration method than it is to rely on an organic means of filtration

I guess it really depends on what you mean by easier.

It is more difficult to know exactly what is going on in a plant than it is to simply inspect your protein skimmer and see that it isn't working properly.

Well in my usage so far, I of course judge effectivess by zero N and P, but as for visuals, I look to see how fast the green is growing. It can't grow without N and P and light and flow. On the nano, for example, the addition of the half cube of mysis yesterday caused the screen to overflow with green today (which I cleaned; of course if the screen were the proper size, I could wait a week.)

A good protein skimmer can effectively get your butt out of a bind in the case of a spawning event which dumps loads of nutrients into the water. Or in the case of accidental foreign chemical addition it may be able to pull the chemical out (depending on the chemical)

I'd agree here. If that happened I'd have to connect up my skimmer, but I'd have to be here to do it.

A protein skimmer improves the oxygen exchange between the air and water

So does turf, especially with a fan. And turf cools the water, and adds oxygen.

in some circumstances can die off and leach previously stored chemicals back into your tank.

Algae can't die if it's getting water, light and nutients. Unless you turn off the flow to the turf for many hours, or turn off the light for two days, it can't die. If either of these did happen (like my 6-hour water shutdown), the re-entry of N and P back into the tank is very gradual, over a period of a few days. You'll know way way in advance, and remove and scrub the turf of dead stuff, before this actually happens. In comparison, when my skimmer cup overflowed (about 30 times in two years), all of the contents poured back into the sump immediately.

 

[superman]

I'm happy to report test results, but after they go to zero, there's not too much additional usefulness in reporting that. The nano test, for example, just hit zero P today (and that's after adding a half cube of mysis yesterday.) So unless the numbers change, we'll assume that N and P are zero, and that the fish and corals are not dieing

Superman:

I wasn't saying that the turf algae could release toxins to compete with corals, but that the toxins from the corals may or may not have some limiting effect on the turf algae. Cyanobacteria may be able to release toxins to compete with other photosynthetic organisms, though I do not have data to prove this

Allelopathics are certainly not handled by turf; I think most people use monthly carbon to deal with them, and I do/will too.

But in a most basic sense, it is much more easy to rely on a mechanical means of filtration (protein skimmer) as the heart of your filtration method than it is to rely on an organic means of filtration

I guess it really depends on what you mean by easier.

It is more difficult to know exactly what is going on in a plant than it is to simply inspect your protein skimmer and see that it isn't working properly.

Well in my usage so far, I of course judge effectivess by zero N and P, but as for visuals, I look to see how fast the green is growing. It can't grow without N and P and light and flow. On the nano, for example, the addition of the half cube of mysis yesterday caused the screen to overflow with green today (which I cleaned; of course if the screen were the proper size, I could wait a week.)

A good protein skimmer can effectively get your butt out of a bind in the case of a spawning event which dumps loads of nutrients into the water. Or in the case of accidental foreign chemical addition it may be able to pull the chemical out (depending on the chemical)

I'd agree here. If that happened I'd have to connect up my skimmer, but I'd have to be here to do it.

A protein skimmer improves the oxygen exchange between the air and water

So does turf, especially with a fan. And turf cools the water, and adds oxygen.

in some circumstances can die off and leach previously stored chemicals back into your tank.

Algae can't die if it's getting water, light and nutients. Unless you turn off the flow to the turf for many hours, or turn off the light for two days, it can't die. If either of these did happen (like my 6-hour water shutdown), the re-entry of N and P back into the tank is very gradual, over a period of a few days. You'll know way way in advance, and remove and scrub the turf of dead stuff, before this actually happens. In comparison, when my skimmer cup overflowed (about 30 times in two years), all of the contents poured back into the sump immediately.

I would challenge that there is no comparison to the amount of oxygen that a moderately sized turf scrubber can introduce compared to what a moderately sized skimmer does to enhance the air to water gas exchange. My reference to algae dying off was in the case of a prolonged power outage. As far as being able to "know" when your algae is not working as efficiently as the day before, probably not as easy as a quick look at a protein skimmer to see if it is working properly. I still think that a hybrid system of using both would be best. I know that in this hobby it is always said to "go with the more natural way" But there is very little that is natural about keeping fish and coral in a glass box, so I say "go with what works the best, with the fewest drawbacks."

 

[SantaMonica]

Fortunately, oxygen is not one of the main benefits of turf, just a side one. So I don't have researched numbers to compare the two, although someone else might. I rather focus on what most beginners (and me) need to deal with: N and P.

Looking at the turf, versus looking at a skimmer, I guess just tells you that they are doing what you put them there to do. The turf is consuming N and P; the skimmer is consuming organics (food).

 

[superman]

Fortunately, oxygen is not one of the main benefits of turf, just a side one. So I don't have researched numbers to compare the two, although someone else might. I rather focus on what most beginners (and me) need to deal with: N and P.

Looking at the turf, versus looking at a skimmer, I guess just tells you that they are doing what you put them there to do. The turf is consuming N and P; the skimmer is consuming organics (food).

So the skimmer deals with organics before they become N or P, and help with water clarity, seems like turf algae is the icing on the cake, but not the cake. I'm done debating this, no hard feelings or anything, just seems like you are saying that the turf algae can replace something (the protein skimmer) that has so many more benefits over the turf algae. Why make it out to be more than what it is? If it works for you then that is fine, go with it, thanks for the build thread

 

[andywg]

There was an interesting article on a public aquarium in Australia which removed its skimmer after installing a turf scrubber. The skimmer went from being emptied once a week to something like months between changes.

I personally am very interested in scrubbers, especially in a FW set up where skimmers and live rock and such tend not to work.

 

[SantaMonica]

Andy, yes turf works great in FW.

Here's another cool screen just built by someone, designed to be over the sump and drain down into it. He says after he adjusted adjusted the flow, there was no spraying or splattering, just a quiet flow down the screen:

 

[SantaMonica]

Week 1 Screen Growth

Here's some results for the turf bucket that was built for the main (not nano) build thread. Below are the pics of the screen, day by day, for the first seven days. I had sanded both sides of the screen, and then "seeded" the screen by rubbing green algae HARD into it. After water flowed over it, only a couple visible specs remained (the rest are invisible spores) that grew a little by the Day 2 pic. It should be noted that this new bucket is working side-by-side on the same tank that my original test bucket is on:

This means that the new screen is sharing nutrients and competing directly against my established screen that I got pre-grown from IA over a month ago. Also, N and P were already zero, so nutrients were hard to come by. So this new screen had little to grow on, unlike the nano. Nevertheless, these pics show the growth progress you MIGHT expect if you decide to grow your own screen from scratch:


Day 2; the specs from seeding are visible:

Hi Res: http/www.radio-media.com/fish/ScreenBuildDay2.jpg

Day 3:

Hi Res: http/www.radio-media.com/fish/ScreenBuildDay3.jpg

Day 4; Brown diatoms have coated the screen:

Hi Res: http/www.radio-media.com/fish/ScreenBuildDay4.jpg

Day 5: Green hair algae specs are starting to lengthen:

Hi Res: http/www.radio-media.com/fish/ScreenBuildDay5.jpg

Day 6:

Hi Res: http/www.radio-media.com/fish/ScreenBuildDay6.jpg

Day 7: Some green hair is over two inches long:

Hi Res: http/www.radio-media.com/fish/ScreenBuildDay7.jpg

Day 7 Closeup; Some brown spots are lengthening, and some green hair is flowing past the bottom; And although it's hard to see, most of the holes are still open:

Hi Res: http/www.radio-media.com/fish/ScreenBuildDay7closeup.jpg

Day 8:

Hi Res: http/www.radio-media.com/fish/ScreenBuildDay8.jpg

Day 9; Some brown spots are getting thick, and some green areas are starting to cover up other areas. Almost all holes are grown over; time to clean!

Hi Res: http/www.radio-media.com/fish/ScreenBuildDay9.jpg

Day 9 Screen Removed; Note the light colored spots on the bottom half. These are probably copepods eating the algae, since I did not clean and freshwater-rinse in over a week:

Hi Res: http/www.radio-media.com/fish/ScreenBuildDay9out.jpg

Day 9 Closeup of Spots:

Hi Res: http/www.radio-media.com/fish/ScreenBuildDay9spots.jpg

Day 9 Removing the green algae by hand first (used toothbruth second):

Day 9 Harvest of first week; Remember that this screen is getting what nutrients are leftover from my other screen:

Day 9 After Cleaning; Note I cleaned both sides, which you only do the first cleaning (thereafter you only clean one side at a time):

Hi Res: http/www.radio-media.com/fish/ScreenBuildDay9after.jpg


So that takes us through the first cleaning cycle of a new screen. Was surprised to see the light spots on the screen since I never saw any on my established screen, but then this new screen is so thin right now that any spots become easily visible. You should not go more than a week between cleaning and a freshwater rinse (freshwater will kill the pods) like I just did; I just wanted to get a decent amount of algae to harvest so you would be able to see it.

Interesting that all the spots are on the lower half of the screen, which in my bucket is the part that stays underwater more often, since the bucket fills partially as the pump runs. (It shouldn't do this, but I have not connected a ball valve to the pump yet, so I can't slow it down). So apparently, the copepods can't survive well when the water flows away, leaving just air. This is a good reason to not submerge your screen, and also to consider having a timer on the pump to let the screen dry out for 30 or 60 seconds between "waves".

On the cleaning, note that I took off all the green, but left the brown. You always want to do this, in order to prepare the screen for developing real red/brown turf later.

Note on "Day 9 Screen Removed", that there is a bit more coverage on the right than on the left. That's because most of the flow has been going on the right side. But as you can see it does not change the coverage that much.

 

[SantaMonica]

Here's a neat screen that someone just built. Since there was no vertical room in his sump area, he asked about horizontal options and I showed him the commercial floating turf screens. He made one out of floating material:

 

[andywg]

Fantastic to see these in action.

I may well have to look into adding one to my sump for my pred system. How do the floating ones work, is it just a screen floating under a light, or am I missing something?

 

[SantaMonica]

You can just use a stiff screen, and put styrofoam balls under the corners so that it just floats. You want it to dip down sometime to get more flow.

 

[SantaMonica]

Here the first pre-grown installation I've seen (except for mine)... jski711 on another board said: "I can't believe how well this DIY thing worked. It literally took all of 45 minutes once I had the materials. And I have noticed my pH raise up about .15 in a few hours since installing it."

 

[rabbut]

Well, I've got myself most of what I need for the trial of my own. I only need a light and cover to make it look tidyer (it's on show ATM if the system were set-up. I've used a duroso (I think that's the plumbing tearm for it) to make the bucket fill and drain on repeated cycles, exposing the screen for about 30 seconds every 2 mins, without having to switch the pump on and off to simulate "waves" nakering a powerhead. My screen will only be one sided, but the screen is a 5 inch radius disc and thus should be suffice on your guidelines... Might post a picture later on of my DIY scrubber...

It will be fed about 300lph from a Maxijet MP1200 at a head height of about 0.75m and then overflow at full into 3/4 inch pipe, forming a syphon draining the bucket to empty before stalling out and then refilling again over the next couple of minuites. I've tested it on a work bench and it works fine, but don't yet have a tank to hook up to yet. Will be interesting to see if it works differently with the outlet under water....

All the best
Rabbut

 

[SantaMonica]

Yes we've got to see pics of this. Remember... bright, powerful light. Neat you know how to work durso's (I myself have a herbie tuned overflow; silent)... you'll get benefit of better growth, and no pump wear.