Major, Chronic New Tank Issues. Ideas?

[simonero]

I've been having major issues.  I am fish ignorant (learned everything I know this week), but my local fish store has failed me and doesn't seem to know what's wrong.  I'd appreciate it if somebody has some advice, so my tank will cease to be a death trap!
 
Apologies but it's a little bit of a story if I'm going to be informative, because I'd really like to learn something!
 
Started off with: 10gal with filtered water that sat 24+ hours, filter, Spectrum Small Fish Formula, clown pleco, hogschoker flounder, blue ram.  Fed a pinch every other day.  Very quickly the water became intensely cloudy and I noticed what at least *looked* like the food floating everywhere with what looked like creepy thin white circles of growth around them.  It got really bad, so I did a full water change.  Ram died shortly before the water change.  Before I changed it, had my water checked at the store, and the employee said the water checked out as perfect; no ammonium, pH fine, didn't explain rest.
 
There were loads of the aforementioned creepy things everywhere once I stirred things up.  Put in tap water this time, a dechlorinator my biologist friend gave me that he said also "coats them and is anti-stress", put the remaining fish back + 2 tetras (flame or look like it), same food and food schedule.  Within 12 hours the water was already clouding.  Within 3 days it was so bad I went for advice again.  That's yesterday.
 
So we did a 75% water change yesterday.  Put in algae wafer for pleco.  Forgot for like 15min to put in the dechlorinator.  I'm guessing that's why a few hours later the pleco died?  Or would this death tank still be the cause?  (Removed algae wafter after)
 
Water checked today - he said it was slightly below 7, but if I ever wanted rams again just keep it as is and it'd be fine.  Put in a heater (78F).  Syphoned/vacuumed up the gravel and got out hundreds of aforementioned creepy things - still a little left in there.  Tetra1 died during process.  Stopped with 1/3 water left, refilled, put in regular dechloinator (NovAqua+) and some bacteria from store.
 
Left for 5 hours.   Tetra2 dead.  Remaining, little flounder acting weird.
 
What is going on?!?!  Also, as I'm working towards a resolution what would be good, hard to kill, likely healthy fish type I could put in there?  Inexpensive.  And I'd rather not get something that needs a school, because I'd rather get more fish later due to limited space.
 
Thank you!!!  Sorry for the length, I appreciate any information you have.

 

[snazy]

You can't cycle a fish tank for 24 hrs unless you use mature filter media from a tank that has been cycled for ages.
Your fish are practically dying from ammonia poisoning no matter what the shop is telling you about the water stats.
You can get a liquid test kit from API for example fairly cheap and test the water yourself.
Cycling a tank takes anything between 4-8 weeks minium and it involves building up bacteria that converts ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrAte.
If you cycle using fish as a source of ammonia, then in order to keep the fish alive you'd need to be doing daily very large water changes as they can't handle the minimum of ammonia.
The white stuff will disappear once the tank is cycled in a month or two.
 
Also, if all your fish are already dead, you have an option to do what's called a "fishless cycle" using bottled, pure ammonia to feed the bacteria. This is a more humane approach.
There's a lot of inormation in the beginner's section how to do that and plenty of threads from people that kept track of theirs.
You can also find plenty of information on the net about nitrogen cycle if you want to understand what exactly happens in aquariums when fish are introduced.
 
Good luck with your new tank. I am sorry you had a bad start. Fish shops only care about selling stuff to people, nothing else it seems.

 

[NeonBlueLeon]

snazy pretty much said it all.  If your fish aren't already dead, just return them to your LFS.  If they won't let your return them, just donate them back to the LFS.  Do a fishless cycle with liquid ammonia.  I highly do not recommend fish-in cycling unless you really really really can't rehome your fish for some reason.

 

[simonero]

Thanks you guys!  Yea, the LFS made it like it was probably all of these other causes and my ammonia was fine and what-not because they didn't know what else to say... Unsurprisingly, they managed to get another $20-30 of of me before I decided to find a tropical fish forum to get real advice.  I found the basics section - everything makes way more sense now.
 
I still have one fish so I think I'm going to try to do daily partial water changes - I don't know that I can handle giving it back, I've become quite attached (it's so whimsical!) and they are just going to sell it to somebody else who has no idea how to take care of it.  If he dies, I guess that's when I should look into getting some ammonia. 

 

[jwalser18]

simon, hopefully he makes it but if not, yeah, get ammonia.

 

[attibones]

What fish is still alive?
 
I had to sound awful, but the pleco, ram, and flounder were definitely not appropriate additions to the tank, so it is sort of a good thing that they aren't in the tank now. 
 
The bottled bacteria you used, by the way, is probably worthless. There are not many bottled bacteria sources which are any good. Due to the process of shipping, and because the instructions do not tell the owner to refrigerate the product, most of the bacteria die by the time they make it to the home. 
 
Regardless, if you can, try to rehome the remaining fish and do a fishless cycle, or see if a friend can hold onto it until your tank is cycled so you can get it back.

 

[simonero]

Thanks jwalser18!
 

What fish is still alive?
 
I had to sound awful, but the pleco, ram, and flounder were definitely not appropriate additions to the tank, so it is sort of a good thing that they aren't in the tank now. 
 
The bottled bacteria you used, by the way, is probably worthless. There are not many bottled bacteria sources which are any good. Due to the process of shipping, and because the instructions do not tell the owner to refrigerate the product, most of the bacteria die by the time they make it to the home. 
 
Regardless, if you can, try to rehome the remaining fish and do a fishless cycle, or see if a friend can hold onto it until your tank is cycled so you can get it back.

 
Yea - now that I know this I'm extremely irked by my LFS.  It was very clear I'm a beginner, and these are the fish they suggested!
 
The tiny little hogchoker flounder is still alive and kickin'.
 
I have one person that might hold onto it in theory, but I figure it's highly unlikely that the huge fish in their 50gal+ tank would be good roommates.. 
 
Because I AM going to keep the fish (no way its going back to that LFS), should I get a couple inexpensive filler fish to produce ammonia so the cycling goes more quickly?  The flounder is so small.  I apologize if that makes no sense, this is all very new to me.

 

[daizeUK]

No - the cycle might go more quickly with more ammonia, but your fish will also suffer more.  Stick with just the flounder and give him daily water changes.  Ask your mate with the big fish tank if you can have a bit of his filter media to kickstart your bacterial cycle

 

[simonero]

No - the cycle might go more quickly with more ammonia, but your fish will also suffer more.  Stick with just the flounder and give him daily water changes.  Ask your mate with the big fish tank if you can have a bit of his filter media to kickstart your bacterial cycle

 
Ok!  Flounder shall enjoy 10gal to himself then.  What specifically would I be asking for, as far as the filter?

 

[daizeUK]

Preferably some of his biomedia (biowheels, ceramic rings) or sponge from inside his filter - he can cut a bit off for you - or failling that, even a handful of gravel would help a little.

 

[SushiAk49]

I hope he makes it. I went through a very long fish in cycle. Long story short, my single little guy made it. Wish you the best of luck. So glad there is a forum like this for people like us.

 

[smiles669]

This is the same thing i had been told by family when i was younger and first starting out... "Just put in the water, add the filter and heater, then let it run for 24 hours or a couple days. Then you can add your fish." Such a bad idea... and there really are employees out there with this kind of information for people as well. It would be so much better if the shops really cared about the customer, and the health of the fish, instead of just making a few extra dollars thanks to some dead fish, only due to a lack of information.

 

[Sophie]

Pets before profit, always!

 

[NeonBlueLeon]

I was talking to someone in my LFS today, and they had an idea that was very interesting.
 
In essence, they wanted to make cheap but effective DIY sponge filters and have one in every tank in their shop.  When someone would purchase a fish for the first time, they would donate this sponge filter to them along with their new fish.  They would recommend running a separate filter, but would advise the new fish owner to keep the sponge filter running in the tank for a month before tossing it.  So this new fish owner would go home with a cycled filter to plop into their tank, which also gives an opportunity to seed the filter the new fish owner has.  That means less new-tank-deaths.  Like Sophie said, pets before profit!  Props to my favorite LFS


Also worth noting is that this conversation started with me and an employee, but one of the supervisors joined in.  It must have been a slow day.    But the supervisor did seem interested in the idea.  We'll see how this plays out!

 

[simonero]

NeonBlueLeon, that's great that somebody in a store cares!  That would be a great idea.  I suppose you would need to be careful that people didn't start lying to get free stuff, though.  If anything, they could always charge a small amount for it but have them always ready and always offer if someone has a new tank.
 
Hopefully I can get some biomedia tomorrow to help my tank out.
 
Thanks you guys!  I really hope he makes it too.  So far he's been a trooper for sure..